You are right IF they are totally stripped of all their enrichments, but those are enrichments based on what you think is enriching.

the wheel is only removed if they start to sleep in it, or use it to hide behind, the only things that are removed is those items, there is lots of enriching toys left in, they have plenty of thing to climb and jump to, in fact many that have the stealths are still using their wheels. funny, but I was trying to address all of your issues regarding this and it seems that "the people" you are talking about is responding based on really not knowing how things are truly done.

now lets take the impression that others have that it is like sticking them in a closet and only allowing them out if they are good, this is totally wrong, in fact it is just the opposite, the pouch should represent the closet, where it is dark, and the sounds they hear is what they are responding to, responding with their fear at that. the pouch protective pouch opens up their environment so that they can identify the sounds, and so that they can see that the movements in the room and near the cage is not aggressive moves towards them. they start to feel safe when they realize that those sounds are not out to get them.

The owners do not FORCE themselves on their glider, again this is just the opposite to what is really going on in these cages. they do work at the gliders pace as to at what point the glider trusts them to continue to the next steps.

The owners are EARNING the gliders trust, they can not just go in there and start picking them up, dumping them into bonding pouches, the glider voluntarily goes to them, they go to playtime because they want to be on the owner, not because they are being forced or deprived for that matter.

It seems these people are making great strides, for many reasons, and they are doing an awesome job at it as well.

They are learning to read their gliders eyes, and body language, they are looking at life more through the gliders eyes, they feel the fear the glider experienced as well as any additional.

if a glider feels safe outside of the pouch, why would someone want to MAKE them stay in a place where they are in fear of someone invading their space?

you are right, trust is earned, and sometimes it takes more than just being around them to earn that trust,

and many times, the old methods instill more distrust issues instead of reducing the fear. after all do you really think the glider cares whether or not you just want to be their friend, when someone is chasing them around the cage trying to catch them to take them out for playtime, or to put them into a bonding pouch, do you think the glider cares what your intentions are when they are being carried around, bounced around in a closed pouch that they feel scared in, talk about losing control of their environment. they are being forced to do things that many owners think is natural. The wheels are a great enrichment tool, but it is just that a tool, a toy. they run and run, and go no where, the gliders like the wheel, but honestly there is not one in the wild, they run around their cage, play with their toys climb their ropes vines and when THEY are ready, they come out for playtime.

The owners are taught hand trust techniques to teach their gliders their hands are good things.They tech their glider their face, their voice so the glider finds comfort and feels safe with them.

a lot of talk about techniques that have not been tried or even been considered, maybe looking for the good in the techniques rather than the speculations of what you may want to think they are could open a whole new world to trust building for the scared gliders out there.

tell me you haven't seen these "vocal" gliders crabbing and being "startled" in their pouch, when many times they are out of the pouch, they are fine, very trusting, no crabbing, no attacking no lunging.

by your standards posted here, taking the pouch away and working with them out of the pouch is wrong, why not work with them in an environment they feel safer in? If they felt safer in the pouch, they would crab and lunge outside of the pouch and be much calmer in the pouch.

I did a little reseach, something about this method was reminding me of something that I couldn't put my finger on, then it hit me, "Stockholm Syndrome."

Stockholm Syndrome or "traumatic bonding" occurs when a person or animal (there has been testing on mice to see if this syndrome really occurs and it was proven) is placed in a situation where they feel they no longer have control, they are isolated from any and everything but their captors. They feel intense fear, the fear of being harmed and having no escape.
All control is in the hands of their captor.

A stragedy for survival kicks in, the victims start responding in a compliant way as a tatic for survival.

Traumatic bonding can be defined as an attachment to a perpetrator/captor during a period of extreme stress and fear in an oppresive situation. The tiniest act of kindness from the captor is inflated the the minds of the victim and they develop a warped love for their perpetrator.

Just wanted to share my thoughts.

I have used (and am currently using) this method with gliders. The little girl I am currently working with, Sassy, came to me because she kept bloodying her owner. This behavior started at 3 weeks oop for this little girl. I've had here here for 3 days now.

She has a wheel and a couple of toys she is unable to "hide" in. She also gets a blanket to sleep under but one that is easy for her to look out from under if she chooses too. She gets interaction from me constantly through the day and night (about every 2-3 hours) and she is NOT responding out of resignation at all. She is alert, perky, active and I believe, even entertained by my attemtps to NOT get bit by her. She eagerly comes up to my hand now and "checks me out" to see if I am going to play with her or feed her or give her belly rubs. YES, day two and I was giving her belly and chin rubs and trust me, what I saw on her face was NOT resignation but contintment. While I'm not ready to put her in my bra, I don't expect it will be long before SHE decides to be a bra baby. And I have NOT used any food as bribery but just a soft voice and a gentle hand. With Sassy, the food isn't needed so isn't used with her. It is not part of "our plan of action" with Sassy.

I know for a FACT that Bourbon does not put a "blanket method" onto these gliders she is working with. She addresses not only the glider's "issues" but the owner's issues as well. Trust building is a two way street. Not only does the glider need to learn to trust the human but the human needs to put aside their own "issues" and "expectations" (both good and bad) in order to learn to trust the glider as well. Sassy's owner EXPECTED to get bit so she got bit and bit badly. I expect Sassy to be the sweet girl I know she really is and so far, she has been that sweet baby.

Kate, I was an active witness with Shelle's work with Buffy. About 2 years or so before Shelle started this method with Buffy, I fostered Buffy (and 10 other gliders) for Shelle for 3 months. I KNOW what Buffy was like then. I have been to Shelle's numerous times to help her clip nails and such and have seen Buffy NUMEROUS times over the past few years. Shelle showed patience and love for 2 YEARS with Buffy. Shelle believed that if she did not do "tent time" with Buffy for 2 hours or more a day then she was neglecting Buffy. She believed that she HAD to take the bites and if she did, Buffy would stop biting her. These things only lead to 2 years of Buffy still being terrified of everything. It lead to 2 years of Buffy chewing on Shelle and leaving SCARS on Shelle (not to mention the scar on me from one of Buffy's pit bull bites) and it did NOTHING for Buffy's sense of security. I saw Buffy 5 days AFTER the introduction of the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and she was calm, self secure and not in a panic over every single noise and movement around her. Buffy still has her "attitude" and she still has her "moody" days where she will take a chunck of skin but now she is able to come out and play and have fun interaction with Shelle AND her 6 yr old daughter without the blood shed. And I can tell you that Buffy IS a happy glider now and her spirit is NOT in any way broken.

So for you to say this "method" is cruel is based on your LACK of first hand experience with this "method". Again, this "method" is not a black and white issue but one adapted for each glider and each owner. And it IS working. NONE of the gliders I have used this with have had their spirit broken. Quite the opposite. They have developed self confidence and have learned to trust that they are safe from harm. They have become both more cuddlely but also more playful and out going.

Oh, and I want to add here too about Buffy. The (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets was NOT a permenant cage addition. Buffy now sleeps in a regular cage pouch or one of Connie's tents and does NOT have the fear reactions she once had every time she hears a noise. Now, she will crawl out of the pouch to peek or to the door of the tent to peek BEFORE she reacts. She does NOT have that "gut reaction to fear" that she once had. She has learned that most noises are not a threat to her.

this is very interesting and totally inconsistent with these techniques, in fact it is totally the opposite,

when they are in the bonding pouch, who has control?
when they are in the bottom of a regular pouch with only one way out and humans are there, who has control?

fact is by exposing them to their environment, they can run away, they can "escape" out the back out the sides out the top. and that gives the glider control of their environment. If they don't want to be petted they will tell you, if they want to be left alone they will tell you, and they also have the option to move away from you.

funny thing about animals when they get afraid they have the basic animal instincts of fight or flight, sadly their flight many times ends them up in places they can not escape from..

Example, I received a call from Australia, during the wild fires, the gliders stayed deep in their holes high in the trees, out of fear, many many gliders and other tree dwelling animals died in those fires.


when you see a glider who is afraid, what do they do? they either lunge, bite, crab, strike or if the fight doesn't work they flight, run into their pouch to hide, thinking if they can't see us, they are safe. where as they are actually placing themselves into a more controlling situation, because to be honest, if a glider runs to it's pouch out of fear, does he really feel safe? or does he continue to crab out of fear till he "hears" no noises.. which at that time he feels safe. so tell me about stress factors of a glider that crabs each time the cage door is moved, or when the pouch is moved.. that stress last over and over and over again, time after time after time.

Teresa, I know that it was successful w/Shelle and Buffy. That was an extreme case w/different behavior. I am merely expressing my opinion on this method based on some reading I've done w/behavior modifications. As I've stated, my concern is for the stress caused by lack of enrichment items and the behaviors it's being used on.



Reading this description of behavior does not sound like abnormal or severe behavior. It sounds like a glider who hasn't settled in w/its owner. I don't agree w/rushing a glider to act the way that we desire by using this method. Crabbing when disturbed is not abnormal behavior. It's similar to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. There needs to be understanding that gliders' normal behavior may not be desirable to us.

I don't feel that crabbing can be compared to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. Gliders crab out of fear, not out of 'grumpiness'. Crabbing is like a person screaming their head off because they are walking up a dark alley at night, defenseless, and someone is about to attack them.

Before I tried this method, my glider was scared to death of me! She would shake to pieces, cower in her pouch and hide from me screaming and fighting to keep me away from her. I offer her the open pouch, show her there is nothing to fear, and now she sees me coming and does not fear the unknown anymore... no more screaming and fighting! She comes to me now, literally FLIES into that pouch for me to pet her, feed her treats and talk to her. She will sit there on her little hiney and listen to me talk, chattering and squeeking at me even if I don't offer her treats. She voluntarily gets on my hand, and looks at me with bright inquisitive eyes, wrapping her tiny lil hands around my fingers and my heart. In the end, the only thing I took away from my gliders was lonely forgotten existence in a cage with no attention, only animosity and fear.

My personal opinion... this is OUR thread to show our progress with OUR gliders, and to get necessary information on THIS method and share our experiences with others that want to give it a try. This is not the place for you to jump in and try to undermine the route we have chosen to try and interact with our gliders. By doing this you take away from our experiences. To me it breaks down to flaming... but that's just my opinion. Oh, and the opinion of the person who sent your message to me via PM very upset, and wondering if she should respond.


And BTW... I never took out their wheel, hanging toy or foraging toy... so their enrichment items never went away. All I took away was the means of hiding. When a child is afriad of the dark, you provide a night lite, thaking away the darkness htey fear; when a drug addict is afraid of the world, you take away their means of hiding from it... the drug! We are merely letting in the light! And it is working.

In this method, though, the glider is not running from you into the pouch. They are being disturbed while sleeping in their pouch. They really can't move away from you if they don't want to have you there. Yes, they can run out of the pouch, but they have no where to go. They are totally exposed which is the basis of this method. By removing everything except the person, all their choices are taken away. Even the pouch is not a safe place for them. My main point is that it seems this method is being used on gliders exhibiting normal, but not desirable, behavior. Gliders, as we are so stridently trying to educate, are unique and do not bond, act or react in the same way. The key is accepting gliders for their unique personalities and not forcing our expectations on them. Just because a glider doesn't want to be held, or crabs, or won't ride in your bra doesn't mean it's not happy or doesn't trust you. It may just be their comfort level. Why is there the need to push a glider beyond its comfort level?

The purpose of having any respectful discussion and sharing of ideas and opinons is how we learn. Whatever method someone chooses is up to them. However, we must be willing to listen to opposing ideas and opinions or we lose the chance at knowledge and the ability to make an informed decision.

I'm sorry - but I will disagree. Sometimes, yes, crabbing means that they are scared. However, crabbing is also a way glider's express themselves. A "go away" crab does NOT necessarily mean they are scared. I have one glider that crabs at his meal worms while he is biting their heads off. He is not scared, nor does he want the worm to go away, he is just expressing himself.

There's a difference between a glider that doesn't want to be held or isn't a bra baby and one that lives in constant fear, terrified of every slight movement or sound outside of its pouch. We are "pushing" these gliders "beyond their comfort level" because their comfort level is to be in their cage all day long with no one coming into the room (let alone any other interaction), because those things are scary. What kind of life is that? We are doing this so that the gliders are no longer scared, so that the gliders can learn to trust and be happier (and healthier, because they will no longer be frightened and stressed about every little sound) in the long run.

I think that what you all are doing is absolutely wonderful. Showing these gliders that there is nothing to be afraid of and helpin them experience love and affection is a beautiful thing! I think that pouch-protectiveness isn't necessarily a personality trait moreso than a behavior trait that almost always has a cause, wether it be lack of attention or abuse or bad diet etc. etc. I'm so happy to read all of these posts and learn about the great successes of bonding with uch-protective gliders. You all sound like you are making such wonderful progress with your babies, and I hope it onyl gets better! it sounds like everyone has happier, healthier gliders from when they first came to you all. Great job!

But are you listening to ours as well? or just forcing your opinions, ? based on your own speculations, ?

I have used old techniques, and still do at times depending on the glider itself. you have not used these techniques.

you just heard from 2 people who use these techniques, and have chosen to totally ignore what they were saying. so where does the education come in?

You're completely right. I was referring to pouch protective gliders that are crabbing in their pouches when someone walks by. I believe this is more than likely out of fear (though it does depend on the glider, I recognize that). I'm sorry that I wasn't clear.

Robin - when you only allow for discussion that is in agreement with you - when you only welcome those that agree with you, then you are dangerously close to creating a cult-like mentality. This is not that. This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. THerefore, all opinions SHOULD be welcome. I, personally, have used this method years ago and would never do so again. I base my opinion on my 14 years of behavioral modification experience and on the results I have seen with my method in my home. NO ONE has said that Bourbon's method does not work. Therefore, nothing has been taken from your experience. Just because someone disagrees does not mean there is an attack. This forum - and all others - should willingly accept the opinions of others - even if they differ from your own. As long as things are presented respectfully, there is no reason there can't be some healty debate. In the end, Bourbon won't be changing her mind/beliefs and I doubt those that disagree with this method will be changing theirs either. Isn't it nice that there is more than one way to achieve desirable results? Isn't it nice that there is more than one method for bonding with your glider? After all, since all gliders are different, and all people's personalities are different, don't we NEED to have more than one method? That is NOT a bad thing. People are allowed to disagree, aren't they?

I'm not ignoring anyone. I said that the technique can be successful in my first post. I am merely stating my opinon on it and saying that there needs to be an understanding of what is normal behavior and that gliders act/react differently. I've seen times where someone wants a glider to act the way they think it should and loses focus on how the glider thinks it should act. I'm just voicing another side to this method. I've listened to the method and I've responded. Nothing more and nothing less.

Gliders crab because that is there way of saying, "go away." Gliders that are truly terrifed like you described above usually do one of two things, they will flee or they will fight. When you have a truly scared glider like what you describe above, in my experience they usually attack or run, not crab.

I have gliders that like to hear themselves crab, they crab their heads off. I'll talk to them and they'll crab. I can also reach right in their pouch, scoop them up and kiss both of them on their heads.

I reiterate my earlier statement... what started out as a place of joy for us in this process of becoming friends with our gliders has now become a battle ground!

When you take your glider out of the cage in a closed pouch, they have zero means of excape. Whereas when I go to take the open pouch out of the cage, my babies have the option to get out of it and stay in the cage. I am actually giving my gliders more options and comtrol over their lives and circumstance than say taking out a closed up closed in pouch that they are forced to stay in.

Again, sorry for being unclear. Please see my response to Jackie_Chans_Mom:

I'm confused as to where the idea that the only other alternative to this method is taking your gliders out in a closed pouch?

All I have to say is... Just as there is no one right or wrong way to raise a child, there is not one wrong or right way to raise a glider.

Bourbon has a knack for helping people see the world through a gliders eyes. Just because her method works for some, it may not for others. Just as the pouch protective pouch did NOT work for us.

That aside, we came up with a solution, my babies don't crab when I walk into the room, they don't lunge at my hand or bite me.

I now have 4 babies that run to the cage door to greet me when I feed them, that ignore me when I am in THEIR room making noise and try to get out of the cage to come see me.

I did not have hours long conversations with Bourbon. I have spoken with her many times, bounced some ideas off her, listened to what she said. But, when it came down to it, I used a combination of her ideas and mine. I may not have had overnight success but it is success nonetheless.

So, if you don't like her methods, then fine. If you do, keep doing what you're doing girls.

I just think the whole purpose of this thread was for moral support and sharing progress. Not a debate over the method itself.

Also, why is it that a different point of view is termed a "battleground"? There has been no disrespectful statements made, simply contradictory views expressed. There is so much that can be learned from others. You don't have to agree...as we don't here...but it doesn't make any view less worthy of being voiced. I advocate a different method, that's all, for reasons I've posted.

BRAVO BRITTNEY!!! Well said!!!!!

Thank you Lizz! You are one lucky glider slave to have gotten older gliders that are so friendly and spoiled. But if any problems develop... you know where to find us! LOL

Very well said Val!

Teresa, I totally agree with your statement, you are an experienced glider owner and know the difference in normal glider behavior and a pit bull, pouch protective glider, I don't disagree with you at all. What you are describing are hard case gliders, not your normal coming to a new home, to new parents and strange surroundings.

Normal gliders exhibit the same behavior, they crab, run, and generally show their displeasure towards you. I thought my first glider was broken when I got him, he hated me and reading all the stories about putting them in your bra made me cry.
I did learn that this IS what gliders do and read everything there was about bonding that is recommended for NORMAL glider behavior and it worked. My Oscar loves to be in my bra now, it took time but we formed a strong bond.

I just think that using the methods that have been described for what I've read about these gliders, is unnecessary. These gliders that are currently using this method exhibit normal behavior, not anything like Buffy. I worry that newbies will want to do this right off the bat, after all everyone wants a cuddle bug immediately and we know that gliders are not puppies, they behave differently and take patience.

Call me old fashioned or whatever, but I don't think these methods are necessary for normal, new glider behavior.

My point was that we all got involved in this thread to talk about our experiencs with this particular train of thought. To share our successes and joys of getting to know our gliders better and be able to interact with them. An alternative means to this end would be better placed in a different thread don't you think? The very first entry in this thread was about Erin and her talking to Bourbon. And the ones involved really wanted this to be a place to talk about just that. Not to debate or say disparaging things about anyone involved. I just don't see the point in coming in at this late date and take away from that. I myslef was perfectly capable of searching out other thread and finding other ways to deal with this issue. I didn't agree with the other ways, and the ones I tried didn't work. But I didn't step in and argue with the other ways.... I just went the other way... and looked for something positive to get involved in. Why must someone always step in and be negative???

I have read what the little group has said, I have tried to address each issue, seems that now the drama has set in, you all have succeeded in drawing attention away from these techniques that work for some, and seems these people don't agree. but i guess they will continue to harp and harp on each post regardless of what is said.


Kate, and Val I am so sorry you have chosen to bring your personal vendettas onto this thread that was set to help others BY people that were using the techniques that was working for them. I now will bow out of this thread, for those that still want help, you know how to reach me, I left the drama behind many months ago, and I will continue to stay on this path of drama free. I will continue to help the gliders in spite of what you all think I should do with my life and my time,

You have not come in here with questions, nor with the desire to really understand how the techniques work.

Robin, dee, connie, erin, jen, chasity, chris,laura, lisa,Nikki, tara,and cindy..

you all have worked very hard to gain the trust of your gliders, in spite of what others want to make it seem like, you have done so with your gliders best interest in mind, looking at life through their eyes, feeling what they feel, and working hard to make them feel safe and secure.

sadly I will have this same group following me , trying to undermine anything good that I do in the community. Have faith in yourself. love those babies. and show them the life that they will enjoy and cherish.

as I said before, I am sorry that you all had to infiltrate a great thread mainly with posts by the people that was working the hardest.

I for one will continue to come around and post good things, and praise the others hard work, yet refrain from responding to the nagativity.

The encouragement and kind words that can be found in this thread are what kept me at it when I got frustrated and wanted to give up.

Lets keep up the good work girls! Bring on the progress reports! How are your babies doing today????