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Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705794
01/04/09 07:59 PM
01/04/09 07:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
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thefotokat  Offline OP
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Rescue and rehab is not about speed...at least not for me. It's about doing my absolute best to make a glider feel safe and remove as much stress as possible from its life. That's just my philosophy. There was a home I was once looking at to place a glider in. I talked to them and felt pretty good about them the first few times we talked. But then we talked some more and red flags started to pop up. I didn't adopt to this home. About 3 months later, they were proven to be trolling for gliders. I have learned one important lesson in my life: trust my instincts. Had I been in a hurry to move that glider out into a forever home, I would have made a bad decision. By spending the time working w/a glider while it's in my home, I can find a better match for a forever home. I can give that forever home more information about that glider. By giving them more information, I lower the chances of them holding false expectations and having that glider end back up in the rescue system. Again, this is my opinion.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #705797
01/04/09 08:01 PM
01/04/09 08:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
The reason I decided to try what Bourbon does is bc I had tried the other way, the sit and wait and maybe they will come around thing. I left her alone, didn't approach her, offered only a whisper and a treat ocassionally, gave her all the space she needed. What happened? After 3 months, Donna was getting worse! She went from crabby and nippy to constant crabbing and going for the bone, and added in this little kung fu fed-you-off with my foot thing before striking like a cobra. YEOWCH! I am sure others know what I mean.



I've never seen anyone recommend sitting and waiting for a glider to come around as a bonding technique. Of course if you don't do anything with them, they are going to get worse.

From your description, is just what I was referring to, I don't think you tried enough- you said yourself, you occasionally did things and gave her all her space but didn't use any kind of bonding techniques but giving a treat once in awhile? That's not building trust- that just builds separation.

There are other ways, I personally think the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is not the way, it's too aggressive and gliders shouldn't be treated aggressively.


ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705798
01/04/09 08:03 PM
01/04/09 08:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Thank you for answering again. I did see that you had already answered that and tried to convey it. But sorry you had to requote again.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Quote:

I disagree here. I have a glider that mini-crabs while she is holding my finger licking it. She may be the exception though, not the rule.


this is what I was saying earlier about listening to your glider, this isn't a mini crab this is a good sound, we call them churbles, they have many sounds of contentment, purrs chirps, churbles


I assure you it is crabbing. Maybe "mini-crab" was not the correct descriptive word. Others have been in the presence of/heard on the phone this and it is crabbing no doubt. This is just what she does. smile


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705802
01/04/09 08:12 PM
01/04/09 08:12 PM
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Posts: 5,336
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Nancy, I have had worse case scenarios here, I have worked with each and everyone of them, I just homed a pair of gliders where one would crab constantly, she was afraid of everything and anything that moved, I swear she would crab in her sleep, she now is in a home where she has an awesome family and she doesn't crab, she doesn't run from them anymore, she is very very loving. but we had to get past her fears, before she was like this, I have had pit bull biters and rippers, Jack is a great example of a baby that would attack the cage when I entered the room, he is awesome now..goes with me everywhere. there is not a worst glider out there, because around the corner will be one that is worse. USmom had dexter, who she swore wanted to eat her.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #705804
01/04/09 08:14 PM
01/04/09 08:14 PM

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BelladonnasMom
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I didn't sit and wait the entire 3 months. I gave her two weeks of waiting and adjusting. Then I did as others on this forum suggested and started playtime, letting her run loose and "play", though all she did was look for some place to hide. Then I started popping her in the bonding pouch and petting her through the pouch and talking to her. My poor ears! She would be fine for long periods of time (an hour or so at times) as long as you didn't so much as take a deep breath. When I did MOVE, I kept expecting blood to run down my neck she was so loud. And heaven forbid you should put your hand INSIDE the pouch... you would draw back a nub. So that went out the window real fast! Offering treats from a bare hand was also dangerous. 99% of the time she would bite my finger BEFORE she would strike at the treat. All of that went on for 3 months before Bourbon started helping me.

Now I have a semi-friendly glider who still scares pretty easily. But she runs to ME when she gets scared, so I am pretty sure she trusts me more than everything else, but I would still like her to trust me for ME. And I would really like for her to LIKE me, not just accept me.

Still... are there any REAL suggestions? All I keep getting is that what I did and continue to do it WRONG! What do you all see as the RIGHT way to go about it??? I am open to new ideas, or repitition of old ones... just something to DO.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #705805
01/04/09 08:14 PM
01/04/09 08:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
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This is about one little boy. He was 1 year old and would crab whenever I touched his pouch and he would lunge out at me if he saw my hand in the cage. The lunging would happen even when I was just reaching in to take out food dishes. I never put him in a bonding pouch or took him out in his sleeping pouch. I talked to him and would simply stand by his cage talking. Then I would put my hand under the pouch and touch them through the fleece. He would crab a bit, but it was not the intensive crabbing that concerns me. I would work my hand up to the top of the pouch, but was sure to never bring my hand down on top of them. I never tried to dominate him. When I brought my hand to the pouch top, I always had a mealie in it. I use mealies instead of lickies in the beginning because it gives the glider the reward of a treat but doesn't force them to stay right w/you. I really don't do licky treats that often. It took some time doing this, but he did learn that hands meant good stuff, not bad. The lunging and crabbing stopped. Now, I don't consider crabbing while in the pouch bad behavior. Keegan is a wonderful glider. He loves to be on me and is very sweet. I can reach in his pouch and he will allow it. It just took some time and patience. A lot of the bonding process revolves around figuring out the "why" of the behavior.

I don't have a "one stop" bonding method. I look at each glider as an individual. What worked w/Keegan, may not work w/another glider. I don't sit around and watch them and do nothing else. I slowly interact w/them in a way to show them that I am not going to hurt them. I use bribery a lot. It has worked for me many times. It has worked for others as well. The points I mentioned in my initial post in this thread are things I think about in each case.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally] #705806
01/04/09 08:16 PM
01/04/09 08:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
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Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Deanna, you can explain what I am trying to say about taking it at the gliders own pace, you have been led by your glider from the beginning..


Absolutely. We stayed at each "step" until Ranger was no longer nervous about that action. For example, when I was just talking to him while he was in the pouch: at first he seemed a little nervous when I would come talk to him. He would look up out of the pouch and stare at me (but didn't crab because he could SEE what was going on) and was tense-probably ready to run if he felt the need to. Eventually, though, he was not frightened by me talking to him. He would look up, go "oh it's her again", and go back to sleep. Soon after that he wouldn't even bother looking up. That's when we moved on to the next "step". I wasn't forcing Ranger into anything or anything like that-I was waiting until he was ready. Another good example of this is (that is used in both this technique and in others) is OFFERING my hand to him-if he doesn't want to get on it, that's perfectly fine-his choice. If he "escapes" the cage, NO chasing-he will come back when he is ready. We absolutely went by Ranger's pace the entire time.

Originally Posted By: jacknsally
who says it is sooner? There's just no way of telling if it was sooner or not. From what I've seen most of the cases- there wasn't much time put in to trying traditional ways.


I was trying "traditional ways" for six months with NO progress before asking Bourbon's help. Clearly I can't speak for anyone else that has worked with her but I feel that six months in total fear with zero progress made is enough indication that it's time to try something new.


Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Come see my Miley in person and tell me if you think using the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets method is what would break her to trust me. Don't worry I have lots of tissues.

Miley is a rescue, she's way beyond the little bumps I've seen the others say they are having with their gliders.


I'm sorry to hear about Miley and I truly hope you will be able to get through to her and help her learn to trust. No one said that the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets was for every glider. No one is trying to "break" a glider into trust. Just because you have an extreme rescue case with you right now (don't get me wrong, I hurt for each rescue that I hear of, but the relevance is what I'm after here) doesn't really mean that any other glider with lesser "problems" should remain scared, and if the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets method works for them, then it's good that there's one less terrified glider out there, one less glider that is going to end up confined to a cage because the owner can't handle it.

I hope I didn't misinterpret your use of Miley's example, though it's possible, so I apologize in advance.


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705807
01/04/09 08:17 PM
01/04/09 08:17 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Bourbon Offline
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Kinue, the little things like you are describing is not a sign of fear, it is a good sound, it sounds different from a crab that is meant to run off predators. they have many sounds, looking into her eyes, you see that the sound she is making is not one of fear but of contentment. if you look into the eyes of a glider that is afraid and crabbing because of it, it is a different look. I don't want to mince words on sounds. you know what the difference between a good and bad sound is..

the owners I have worked with on the other thread, take the time to learn their gliders, learn their body language.. and I don't mean waiting till they get up into the ninja stance, but watching their face, their body, knowing what they are going to do before they do it. it is the most awesome feeling once you realize your glider speaks to you in a lot of ways.

by the way.. gliders don't like change, taking something out of the cage freaks them out just as much as adding something into it, or shifting things around. they are creatures of habit.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705817
01/04/09 08:24 PM
01/04/09 08:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
yes Deanna, Miley is an extreme but she is responding like a stressed out glider in fear. So in my eyes any glider that is stressed and in fear, why add to it. Bourbon says it right here-

Originally Posted By: Bourbon

by the way.. gliders don't like change, taking something out of the cage freaks them out just as much as adding something into it, or shifting things around. they are creatures of habit.


So then why do the methods that you do if your only going to freak them out even more? That's what we've been saying- doing the methods like (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is only bringing on more stress. How does that build trust? For gliders who the change does stress out, we don't recommend change why would you?


ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705818
01/04/09 08:24 PM
01/04/09 08:24 PM

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BelladonnasMom
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Originally Posted By: Bourbon
by the way.. gliders don't like change, taking something out of the cage freaks them out just as much as adding something into it, or shifting things around. they are creatures of habit.


Oh Bourbon! You're about to catch it over that comment. LOL I want to point out that when I was asked to take all those hidey holes out of the cage, I was also instructed to leave them alone for awhile to let them adjust to their new environment. LOL

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705819
01/04/09 08:24 PM
01/04/09 08:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
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Ft. Pierce, FL
Robin, there is no right way. It all depends on your glider. W/some gliders that come here, I start touching them the very first day. W/others, I wait a day or 2. W/one little guy, I sat outside his cage every night and talked to him. First, I talked to him and he crabbed, then I talked to him and he was quiet, then I talked to him and he sat across the cage looking at me, then I talked to him and he came over and snatched a treat before running back to the far side of the cage, then I talked to him while he sat next to my hand eating the treat. It was a progression. I didn't move towards him, but I didn't run away. It's about a balance. It's about following your gut. If your gut tells you that you feel great about using your current method, then by all means go ahead and continue. But if it doesn't feel right, keep looking. I know it's frustrating to want to love them and not have them love you back. I believe they will, in their own way. It may not be the way you want, but it will come. I've listened to several different people advise others. Sometimes I've agreed and sometimes I haven't. I've advised someone only to be told "never say that again" when it was contradictory to the other person's advice. My point is, I have listened to many different people and situations. I've helped some and others I haven't. I'm not a miracle worker...no one is. All I do is try. I try my best and I do what I feel is right for each glider regardless of whether my opinon is the popular one or not.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705824
01/04/09 08:28 PM
01/04/09 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
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LSardou Offline
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Kansas
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
by the way.. gliders don't like change, taking something out of the cage freaks them out just as much as adding something into it, or shifting things around. they are creatures of habit.


That statement is SO true!
I have one glider who totally HATES change. No matter how small of a change it is, he will totally loose it.

With Sam, I've learned to slowly allow him to adjust to whatever it is that I've changed. If he reacts, I remove whatever is bothering him or replace what it was that I moved. But first I will hold him close to me, let him look at it, and smell it, then I remove the new item and do it again the next night. Usually after 2 or three intros to the new change he will start to feel safe.

I feel that with holding him close, gently talking to him, and petting him through the intro process while he sees that this new thing or the absence of the old thing isn't going to hurt him, assures him that he is safe.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705825
01/04/09 08:33 PM
01/04/09 08:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: thefotokat
I know it's frustrating to want to love them and not have them love you back. I believe they will, in their own way. It may not be the way you want, but it will come.


Exactly


ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705826
01/04/09 08:33 PM
01/04/09 08:33 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Bourbon Offline
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Nancy on the contrary, it is recommended to change their items regularly, to add enrichment, yes The first thing I tell everyone is that we are going to rock their world right off the bat, we move the cages into the living room, we change pouches we remove items..

with that now.. they are in a simulated fresh new owner situation, new environment, things are different in the cage, strange sounds and a view that hadn't seen before.

then.....
they are left to acclimate, the first 24 hours, there is no entry into the cage except to just open the door to tell them everything is going to be okay...

at that point, these gliders have no history, they have only a fresh start with an owner that is not only doing things differently, but also is talking to them different, they are working with them different.

I can be condemned for that, but as I said.. people change things around in their cage all the time, add new toys all the time, they stress their gliders on a regular basis..

the goal is to do it all at once. keeps the stress down, rather than taking and moving things around each day, or adding things.. this is not recommended with the exception of adding back things as they progress.

ever want to clean the clutter out of your life?? wonder if that would work with my house?

Re: bonding method debate [Re: LSardou] #705829
01/04/09 08:36 PM
01/04/09 08:36 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
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Bourbon Offline
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Quote:

I feel that with holding him close, gently talking to him, and petting him through the intro process while he sees that this new thing or the absence of the old thing isn't going to hurt him, assures him that he is safe.



which is where the owners new ways that first 24 hours come in, it is done in a comforting way that makes the glider feel safe with it's new surrounding

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705830
01/04/09 08:36 PM
01/04/09 08:36 PM

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BelladonnasMom
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BelladonnasMom
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Originally Posted By: thefotokat
I know it's frustrating to want to love them and not have them love you back. I believe they will, in their own way. It may not be the way you want, but it will come.


Yeah, Bourbon keeps tellin me no matter what I do, there may come a point that Donna will never get any better. But she is 1,000 times more friendly now that she was before. And believe me, I am soooo grateful for that! She's not scared of ME anymore... and I can totally be happy if we stopped there. She accepts me now, but she may never fully bond with me. But the desire never goes away. LOL You totally get that, I can tell.

And they aren't scared of change anymore either! Yee haa! Cause I LOVE making them new things for their cage, or introducing new funstuff I find. They actually go right to it when they wake up and check it out. Whereas before, when Donna was so scared she would revert right back to crabby bitey bunz. LOL But I still only chage a few things at a time, and NEVER everything at once. Even I would freak out really badly if I woke up one morning and someone had taken all my stuff and replaced it with new. No matter how nice the new stuff may be, it still isn't MINE!

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705831
01/04/09 08:39 PM
01/04/09 08:39 PM

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TWilson
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Originally Posted By: thefotokat
I don't have a "one stop" bonding method. I look at each glider as an individual. What worked w/Keegan, may not work w/another glider. I don't sit around and watch them and do nothing else. I slowly interact w/them in a way to show them that I am not going to hurt them. I use bribery a lot. It has worked for me many times. It has worked for others as well. The points I mentioned in my initial post in this thread are things I think about in each case.


I am going to go off of this, yep I too don't think there is a "one stop" bonding or trust building method, I look at each glider that is scared or has trust issues and evaluate them.

My Tony would be dead if I took him out of a regular pouch and used an open pouch with him, no doubt in my mind about that. I've also had gliders that were very scared in the pouch and I wouldn't refer those gliders as pouch protective. To me "pouch protective" means they are protective of their pouch which isn't the case, they don't stand guard over their pouches.
I've had gliders that were terrified while in their pouches, they would crab, lunge, bite and fly out of there at the smallest of noise or movement. I decided to call Karin and ask her to help me out. She makes these wonderful little cabana's, they are like little houses. They're completely closed up at the top, the opening is in the center like a little open door.
These worked great for some of my gliders, they had a covering over their heads and that made them feel protected from above, made them feel like something couldn't swoop down and get them. The opening in the center allowed them to peek out whenever they were scared, or to look at me. Those worked great!!!!! I could reach in the cage while talking to them and let them know I was there, they'd look out to decide if they were going to run or not, at that point I'd give them a minute, and softly talk to them. I'd reach up from the BOTTOM with a treat in my hand, they'd lunge but they would get the treat. They would ease back in to the cabana and eat their treat while I stayed and talked to them.
I did this frequently throughout the day, making short, brief visits bearing goodies and a reassuring voice.
If they did make a break for it, I'd let them but I'd immediately back off, give them their space and they'd go back to the cabana. I'd let some time go by and try again, normally this time they'd stay.

I never removed anything from the cage while using this process, I used positive reinforcement, patience, and love and let them go at their pace for their reassurance.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705835
01/04/09 08:43 PM
01/04/09 08:43 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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over the last couple of days, I have spoken to many people regarding this, I know where my help starts and stops, the owners also are told what my place is in all this. Belladonna, I love her to death, she has had a hard road with donna, and she has made super great progress, she isn't where she would be ideally, and she is not going to give up, but she does now have a glider she can interact with, she reads her gliders body language, and she listen when she speaks to her. I told her that time , is what she has, the more time she spends with her, the tighter her bond will be, we are both with the understanding that donna, may never be a glider that will going into her bra or bonding pouch, she may never want to be held or cuddled, but she also will never be the scared glider that she was before. things still scare her, she has high anxiety, and quick movement make her undone, but at least Robin knows that and donna tells her, the good thing is that Robin listens..

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #705836
01/04/09 08:44 PM
01/04/09 08:44 PM

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BelladonnasMom
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BelladonnasMom
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I have never been overly fond of the appearance of the PP pouch, and was actually thinking of going with a more closed in model, but with a nice large front opening. I always though the term PP was about the glider being afraid of what they could not physically SEE, and an extreme fear of being attacked from above. That is why the Karin's pouch is so awesome to me, she can see me coming from in front of her, and I don't scare the pebbles out of her by coming from above her defenseless little head.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705837
01/04/09 08:45 PM
01/04/09 08:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Kinue, the little things like you are describing is not a sign of fear, it is a good sound, it sounds different from a crab that is meant to run off predators. they have many sounds, looking into her eyes, you see that the sound she is making is not one of fear but of contentment. if you look into the eyes of a glider that is afraid and crabbing because of it, it is a different look. I don't want to mince words on sounds. you know what the difference between a good and bad sound is..


Okay I not going to mince words on sounds either. I was merely trying to explain to you the same crab she uses when she is disturbed from sleep is the same one Im trying unsuccessfully to describe. Only in short bursts. But same tone, same volume. She is my quirky one, who is a tad bit vocal. smile


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705839
01/04/09 08:47 PM
01/04/09 08:47 PM

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BelladonnasMom
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B



Originally Posted By: Bourbon
over the last couple of days, I have spoken to many people regarding this, I know where my help starts and stops, the owners also are told what my place is in all this. Belladonna, I love her to death, she has had a hard road with donna, and she has made super great progress, she isn't where she would be ideally, and she is not going to give up, but she does now have a glider she can interact with, she reads her gliders body language, and she listen when she speaks to her. I told her that time , is what she has, the more time she spends with her, the tighter her bond will be, we are both with the understanding that donna, may never be a glider that will going into her bra or bonding pouch, she may never want to be held or cuddled, but she also will never be the scared glider that she was before. things still scare her, she has high anxiety, and quick movement make her undone, but at least Robin knows that and donna tells her, the good thing is that Robin listens..


I DO I DO I DO!!! I try to listen to everyone! I am totally in it for my gliders' sakes! My girls are what is most important, not MY comfort but THEIRS! I felt so powerless watching Donna make herself crazy! Now she seems almost happy! Of course I WANT her to love me... but as long as she isn't scared of her own shadow... I can be okay!

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #705841
01/04/09 08:52 PM
01/04/09 08:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
Originally Posted By: thefotokat
I know it's frustrating to want to love them and not have them love you back. I believe they will, in their own way. It may not be the way you want, but it will come.


Yeah, Bourbon keeps tellin me no matter what I do, there may come a point that Donna will never get any better. But she is 1,000 times more friendly now that she was before. And believe me, I am soooo grateful for that! She's not scared of ME anymore... and I can totally be happy if we stopped there. She accepts me now, but she may never fully bond with me. But the desire never goes away. LOL You totally get that, I can tell.




Robin, acceptance is the key. We are all wanting the same results: happy gliders. We just have different approaches.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705844
01/04/09 08:54 PM
01/04/09 08:54 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
this is no different than what we do, the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets has opening top, back front, if they want to run they can, if they do, the owner backs off.. but still talks to them. positive reinforcement is used constantly, with lickys of various flavors as well as petting when the glider is ready, the petting is then alternated with just talking as well as the treats.

you didn't remove items we do, but it isn't anyone else to judge as to what someone has in their cage. I for one don't have a lot in my cages, and I don't have small cages, but my gliders are happy, energetic and they don't express fear in any way shape or form. no one is going to tell me, what I have to have in my cage as per their own interpretation as to enrichment toys.

I was around in the community when a tree branch and ropes were enrichments, Baybe grew up on them and she lived a very long full life, she was a very happy, very bonded glider who grew to not be afraid of anything, she trusted me ultimately, she trusted I would not allow any harm to come to her. and I never betrayed that trust or that bond.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #705849
01/04/09 09:05 PM
01/04/09 09:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,796
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,796
Wisconsin
I know I am very new here, but I have had a couple gliders that have been a challenge. My Zoey and Widget still crab a bit.

Quote:
, it is a good sound, it sounds different from a crab that is meant to run off predators.


I feel it is crabbing to be crabby, like hey you bumped my cage crabbing. I experience the crab that is meant to run off predators when another scared little glider came into my life. Now that was crabbing, reaching into the cage was taking your life into your own hands. It took two weeks before she stopped bitting and when she bit she drew blood.

My method with her was to wrap her up in a big piece of fleece and just sit quietly and rub small circles on her body. Rubbing just firm enough to move her skin and message her muscles a bit. ( I learned this technique from a woman who does it with parrots) I made great progress, even the first day I did this method with her, after about 5 minutes of this she would start the happy chirping sound that my gliders make when they are content.

She is now the glider who pops up out of her pouch to see me in the evenings, ears up and wanting to know what I have for her. I have to admit I am very free with the mealies and yoggies. But she doesn't crab that stand away from me crab anymore. I think that Zoey and Widget will always give me that you bumped my cage crab, but it sounds nothing like the crab of terror my littlest one had when she first came here.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Mister Peanut & Big Mack
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Cho, Toothless, Maverick & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Light Fury, Madison & T'Pring :rtmo:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker, Khayman and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705853
01/04/09 09:13 PM
01/04/09 09:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: Bourbon

I was around in the community when a tree branch and ropes were enrichments,


But we've learned so much more since then. Years ago, there was much that we didn't know in all of life. I work in dentistry. Years ago, dental staff didn't know that the repeated exposure to radiation incurred by holding radiographic film in the mouth was hazardous. We do now and we don't do it anymore. My point is that as we learn, we learn that what was once accepted as fact isn't any longer. We learn that we have to adapt...to change. We can't just do what has always been done simply because it was what has always been done. We have to incorporate our new knowledge. I work w/gliders in the ways I do because I have taken what was known and done and added to it the newly gained knowledge and experiences. I don't just keep doing the same thing. I've got no problem w/trying something new so long as you research what you're doing and why. If you find something that works...have at it. There will always be disagreements, discussions, and debates. Learning is an continual process.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #705855
01/04/09 09:15 PM
01/04/09 09:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
You're right, Kimberley. There are different sounds and it is only by actually hearing them and through experience that you can distinguish their meanings. I'm glad you found a way to help you sweet baby. Congrats.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705860
01/04/09 09:19 PM
01/04/09 09:19 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Bourbon
you didn't remove items we do, but it isn't anyone else to judge as to what someone has in their cage. I for one don't have a lot in my cages, and I don't have small cages, but my gliders are happy, energetic and they don't express fear in any way shape or form. no one is going to tell me, what I have to have in my cage as per their own interpretation as to enrichment toys.


This is why it is called a debate. smile
Yes, you do remove items from your glider cages, I don't and I too have great success with my methods. You use a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets with an open top, front and sides. I choose to use one with an enclosed top and sides, but an opening in the center. Like I said, I have had great success using Karin's (gliderdaydreams) cabanas.

I don't have small cages either, but I do have lots of enrichment toys, hammocks, tunnels, etc. and I don't have any issues with leaving them in there.

I'm also not telling you what you can or can't have in your cages either, Bourbon. Those are your gliders and you take care of them the way you see fit or successful, I'm just saying this is what I have and what I do and I've had great success as well as happy gliders that are no longer fearful.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Feather] #705861
01/04/09 09:21 PM
01/04/09 09:21 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Feather
I know I am very new here, but I have had a couple gliders that have been a challenge. My Zoey and Widget still crab a bit.

Quote:
, it is a good sound, it sounds different from a crab that is meant to run off predators.


I feel it is crabbing to be crabby, like hey you bumped my cage crabbing. I experience the crab that is meant to run off predators when another scared little glider came into my life. Now that was crabbing, reaching into the cage was taking your life into your own hands. It took two weeks before she stopped bitting and when she bit she drew blood.

My method with her was to wrap her up in a big piece of fleece and just sit quietly and rub small circles on her body. Rubbing just firm enough to move her skin and message her muscles a bit. ( I learned this technique from a woman who does it with parrots) I made great progress, even the first day I did this method with her, after about 5 minutes of this she would start the happy chirping sound that my gliders make when they are content.

She is now the glider who pops up out of her pouch to see me in the evenings, ears up and wanting to know what I have for her. I have to admit I am very free with the mealies and yoggies. But she doesn't crab that stand away from me crab anymore. I think that Zoey and Widget will always give me that you bumped my cage crab, but it sounds nothing like the crab of terror my littlest one had when she first came here.


clap

That is awesome Kimberly!!!!!

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705888
01/04/09 10:00 PM
01/04/09 10:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Quote:
Bourbon states: I work individually with each and every person, one on one, many hours per day many times per week, in fact daily I am in contact with them.


Unfortunately, not all of the people trying the PP Pouch are initially in touch with you Bourbon. Several of the folks that are using it under your direction are jumping in and advising new glider owners who have a brand new crabbing joey that "they must have a pouch protective glider" and then that individual is giving them second hand instructions on your methods for using the PP Pouch.

This means there are new owners who are not giving the glider time to adjust to them before deciding drastic measures are needed.

If new glider owners have not tried moving at the glider's pace and are being advised by other relatively new owners then they may misinterpret your guidelines because they have not actually spoken to you directly. There are even GC members who do not yet have a glider jumping into these "I need help bonding" threads. One individual who has not yet had her own glider has made so many posts she has gained Senior Glider Member status - after joining the forum only a few months ago. That can be misleading to new members who would naturally expect a Senior Glider Member to have had lots of personal hands on experience with a number of gliders.

If you could put a description of a "Pouch Protective Glider" in writing and write out step by step directions for your approach to dealing with truly Pouch Protective Gliders then perhaps it could be made a sticky where folks could review your directions and contact you if they plan to begin using a PP pouch.

These new owners should not be using your plan with out your direction and assistance.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705945
01/04/09 10:50 PM
01/04/09 10:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Nancy on the contrary, it is recommended to change their items regularly, to add enrichment


Yes I know that and that only applies to gliders who can handle change. Not all of them like their toys rotated out.


To me the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is extreme and I don't feel extreme stressful techniques should be used when bonding with gliders. We don't encourage physical harm to our gliders, why would one encourage emotional harm to a glider? I honestly believe forcing them to sleep in something else than something they feel in safe, is emotional abuse. I don't make my gliders sleep in pouches, I only offer them. My gliders have several things in their cages that are fit for sleeping in but they choose each night on where they want to sleep. When I offer them a new style of pouch- I never take away what they are use to. Once they are using the new item I gave them regularily, it's safe to say they like it and I take out the previous for cleaning and rotate them around.


ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


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