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Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Tish84] #927636
04/07/10 02:31 PM
04/07/10 02:31 PM
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Just because a glider expresses a trait does NOT mean it is homozygous.

For technicality's sake we do not call mo's and WF's het's because in our community 'het' means that the carry the trait.

But if any animal inherits one allele and another it makes it heterozygous.

If a white face expresses whiteface, or the same for mo's it DOES CARRY the trait- the WF or Mo allele 'overrides' the grey allele and it is expressed.

This is how you get greys out of two WF parents. BOTH parent's have a WF allele AND a grey allele, which makes the heterozygous.

the two WF parents would look like this genotypically.
W-White face
w-grey

Ww x Ww

Ww- heterozygous for White Face
WW-homozygous for White face.


Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927639
04/07/10 02:33 PM
04/07/10 02:33 PM
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Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Dancing
All this is discussing the "genotype" theories. Anyone considered the "phenotype" theories?

A phenotype is any observable characteristic or trait of an organism: such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, or behavior. Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and possible interactions between the two.

Look at the mosaic joeys Alicia produces. She seems to have some secret lab (or atleast is accused of having a secret lab) where she is creating an abundance of extraordinary joeys. Maybe there is some truth to the theroy of Alicia's joeys?



You know what? I HAVE thought about this. In one of my recent posts, I said that I believed mosaics tended to produce joeys that had markings similar to themselves. My MO has a large break in his stripe (much like many other MO's) and even his most minimally marked joeys have a hint of a break.

You know Gucci right? Kris' Glider with that spot on his hip? Well that spot has been passed on to some of his joeys.

And yes... Alicia must have a secret lab, how else can we explain how she hits the joey jackpot so often?!?!?


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927640
04/07/10 02:34 PM
04/07/10 02:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
Just because a glider expresses a trait does NOT mean it is homozygous.

For technicality's sake we do not call mo's and WF's het's because in our community 'het' means that the carry the trait.

But if any animal inherits one allele and another it makes it heterozygous.

If a white face expresses whiteface, or the same for mo's it DOES CARRY the trait- the WF or Mo allele 'overrides' the grey allele and it is expressed.

This is how you get greys out of two WF parents. BOTH parent's have a WF allele AND a grey allele, which makes the heterozygous.

the two WF parents would look like this genotypically.
W-White face
w-grey

Ww x Ww

Ww- heterozygous for White Face
WW-homozygous for White face.


^^ YES! This is the basis that I think we are all trying to work from... Good definition smile


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927641
04/07/10 02:36 PM
04/07/10 02:36 PM
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:
this also means that a homozygous dominant MO "MM" would only produce MO's when paired with a gray...


Even if the mosaic parent is MM, the joey still gets half of it's alleles from the grey parent. So, you get the "gamble" from the grey parent.


The joey's produced will still be mosaics, at least as long as our current understanding of the mosaic trait holds out. The genotype will be Mm though, instead of the MM of the original parent.


Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927642
04/07/10 02:38 PM
04/07/10 02:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
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80 acres of paradise in KS
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You are right. Here is where the dominance, recessive or codominance of the genes plays in and where it gets complicated.

One of the problems we have is the way the "general glider community" has come to use certain terms.

The community uses the term "het" to mean the glider has the potential to produce a certain trait. Such as a Leu "het". Two leu "hets" can produce a leu. Technically there ARE wf "hets" but, because of what type the genes are (recessive, dominant, codominant etc) we know that a wf "het" paired with another wf "het" won't produce wf joeys.

This is one reason I hate the prunett squares. They overly simplify the issue. With gliders, it is anything but simple. There are to many other factors that play into it.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927643
04/07/10 02:40 PM
04/07/10 02:40 PM
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Orlando, FL
Tish84 Offline
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Originally Posted By: oakley
Originally Posted By: Tish84

Yes anytime grey is added back in, it gets it's fair shot whether the parent is a MO (Mm) or a grey (mm), grey gets back into the equation.


I get that aspect now...

Are you saying that even a cross between a "MM" and a "mm" could result in gray joeys??

I do agree that anytime gray is bred to, the gray gene will once again be introduced... do we know that grey is 100% recessive or is it another mystery?


No, you're right MM x mm wil always get you a MO. If you do get a non-mo, you know your MM was actually a Mm.


TISH

Lana (Siberian Husky)
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Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Tish84] #927647
04/07/10 02:45 PM
04/07/10 02:45 PM
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Iowa
Lindsay Offline
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Okay I don't want to go way off topic, I am finding this conversation very interesting but wondering for a beginner where do you find all of this genetics information for gliders? I have seen a couple sites and I am really interested in learning. Thanks!


Lindsay


Lindsay

Owned by: Junior :grey: , Genevieve :grey: , and their two kids Sora :grey: and Jarren :grey:.

Also Ryuu.
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Tish84] #927649
04/07/10 02:49 PM
04/07/10 02:49 PM
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There are a few things to consider...

First of all: have you LOOKED at the high-gen WF lineages? If so, then you'll know that the further you go back, the scarier they get! :\ Personally, I would never want to look at mosaic lineages and see something like that just because people want a mo that will produce more mosaic babies. :\

Secondly: the only way to PROVE that a mosaic is a "super mosaic" would be to breed that glider multiple times. So, if you're wanting to sell "super mosaics" then you'd have to keep the joey and breed it multiple times before being able to label it as "super". Then what?...are you going to sell that glider that you've now had for a couple years and have bred many times and bonded to it? frown

See the problems? So, even if you DO get "super mosaics" the cost would be too high for the gliders.

BTW, there's no guarantee that a mosaic would be "super" either. I have a mosaic that used to be paired with a WF and of the 5 joeys they had, only 1 was a mosaic. However, I ended up having to separate them and now he's with a 66% cremino het female and with his female they've had 6 joeys and ALL of them were mosaics. Sooo...if I'd originally put him with the cremino het and not with the WF then I could easily claim him as being a "super mosaic". However, that would be a lie, because he's NOT a super mosaic, it's just a good pairing, but if paired with a different glider he'll throw non-mosaics.

Hope this helps.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Lindsay] #927652
04/07/10 02:53 PM
04/07/10 02:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Lindsay,

The easiest genetics to understand is simple mendelian genetics in my opinion.

Here is a pretty good website to learn from.

And here is where you can learn about genetic probability using the punnett square.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Guerita135] #927653
04/07/10 02:56 PM
04/07/10 02:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Describe "high generation". Is 3rd gen considered "high gen"? Not all of the "high gen" family trees are a disaster. Yes, some are, but not all.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Guerita135] #927656
04/07/10 03:09 PM
04/07/10 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135
There are a few things to consider...

First of all: have you LOOKED at the high-gen WF lineages? If so, then you'll know that the further you go back, the scarier they get! :\ Personally, I would never want to look at mosaic lineages and see something like that just because people want a mo that will produce more mosaic babies. :\

Secondly: the only way to PROVE that a mosaic is a "super mosaic" would be to breed that glider multiple times. So, if you're wanting to sell "super mosaics" then you'd have to keep the joey and breed it multiple times before being able to label it as "super". Then what?...are you going to sell that glider that you've now had for a couple years and have bred many times and bonded to it? frown

See the problems? So, even if you DO get "super mosaics" the cost would be too high for the gliders.

BTW, there's no guarantee that a mosaic would be "super" either. I have a mosaic that used to be paired with a WF and of the 5 joeys they had, only 1 was a mosaic. However, I ended up having to separate them and now he's with a 66% cremino het female and with his female they've had 6 joeys and ALL of them were mosaics. Sooo...if I'd originally put him with the cremino het and not with the WF then I could easily claim him as being a "super mosaic". However, that would be a lie, because he's NOT a super mosaic, it's just a good pairing, but if paired with a different glider he'll throw non-mosaics.

Hope this helps.



I agree completely Nicole! This was what I was trying to get at in my original post.

Genetically even, there are a lot of problems that could arise from many generations of Mo x Mo pairings. This is not an ethical statement, it's genetically based-and potentially true.

Lindsay- I have a huge interest in genetics, and have spent many many hours picking breeders minds and researching lineages on my own. smile It takes a lot of time to figure it all out, and even then-you're always still learning!

Last edited by Glide_Bye_Lily; 04/07/10 03:09 PM.

Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927657
04/07/10 03:18 PM
04/07/10 03:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 321
45013, Ohio
Sunshine Offline
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So it isn't considered okay to breed two MO's?

Let me ask you this...

Would you buy a glider who has two Mo parents?

I'm confused.. A LOT!! roflmao

Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Guerita135] #927659
04/07/10 03:18 PM
04/07/10 03:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135
There are a few things to consider...

First of all: have you LOOKED at the high-gen WF lineages? If so, then you'll know that the further you go back, the scarier they get! :\ Personally, I would never want to look at mosaic lineages and see something like that just because people want a mo that will produce more mosaic babies. :\

-I know how you feel. I'm not trying to upset anyone here... I'm just curious about the genetics wink

Secondly: the only way to PROVE that a mosaic is a "super mosaic" would be to breed that glider multiple times. So, if you're wanting to sell "super mosaics" then you'd have to keep the joey and breed it multiple times before being able to label it as "super". Then what?...are you going to sell that glider that you've now had for a couple years and have bred many times and bonded to it? frown

See the problems? So, even if you DO get "super mosaics" the cost would be too high for the gliders.

-Again... I'm trying to discuss a Genotype theory, I wouldn't be trying to breed and sell "super" anything myself.

BTW, there's no guarantee that a mosaic would be "super" either. I have a mosaic that used to be paired with a WF and of the 5 joeys they had, only 1 was a mosaic. However, I ended up having to separate them and now he's with a 66% cremino het female and with his female they've had 6 joeys and ALL of them were mosaics. Sooo...if I'd originally put him with the cremino het and not with the WF then I could easily claim him as being a "super mosaic". However, that would be a lie, because he's NOT a super mosaic, it's just a good pairing, but if paired with a different glider he'll throw non-mosaics.

-We've already discussed that the only way to tell for sure would be to DNA test... I'm just opening up a discussion about the possibilities.

Hope this helps.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Sunshine] #927661
04/07/10 03:23 PM
04/07/10 03:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
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Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Heather_Wilder
So it isn't considered okay to breed two MO's?

Let me ask you this...

Would you buy a glider who has two Mo parents?

I'm confused.. A LOT!! roflmao


Sorry Heather!

I took your post and ran with it!

Yes, it is ok to breed to MO's together as long as they are unrelated. We are discussing genetics here, and it can get messy! What you WOULDN'T want to do, would be to keep breeding MO's to MO's to the point that they are being inbred. I do believe there is someone here that has a MO-MO pair.

Most people (including myself) will tell you that you can save money by buying only one MO and breeding it to a gray. While this is true, if you have the resources to buy two unrelated MO's and breed them, that is completely up to you wink


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Sunshine] #927664
04/07/10 03:26 PM
04/07/10 03:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
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Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Originally Posted By: Heather_Wilder
So it isn't considered okay to breed two MO's?

Let me ask you this...

Would you buy a glider who has two Mo parents?

I'm confused.. A LOT!! roflmao


I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would not.

I really advocate breeding lines out, especially the color lines (mosaic, leu etc). So buying a glider with the potential to start intertwining the lines would not be a good thing. IMO.


Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927665
04/07/10 03:26 PM
04/07/10 03:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 321
45013, Ohio
Sunshine Offline
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This is a lot to digest and a lot to think about! :/

Should i risk giving up an adorable glider but at least having one mosaic or should i get both because they've captured my heart?

HELPP!! help

Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927667
04/07/10 03:30 PM
04/07/10 03:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would not.

I really advocate breeding lines out, especially the color lines (mosaic, leu etc). So buying a glider with the potential to start intertwining the lines would not be a good thing. IMO.


I see where you are coming from... but isn't there a point to where the line is SO far bred out that it wouldn't do harm in breeding two like-gliders together?

I mean, even standard grays originated from some original pair... Look at the WF lines... now people don't think twice putting two *unrelated* WF together because the lines can be so far apart, that there is no risk of inbreeding.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927669
04/07/10 03:33 PM
04/07/10 03:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Whoa!

We're getting off topic!

Back to the Genotype Phenotype theory that Dancing brought up...


I think Phenotype theory may be an effective way to improve certain desireable charachteristics (like ringtail, wt, etc)

Do we know anyone who has bred for a certain phenotype? (ie. wt, broken stripes, spotted ears etc.)


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927675
04/07/10 03:49 PM
04/07/10 03:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily


Genetically even, there are a lot of problems that could arise from many generations of Mo x Mo pairings. This is not an ethical statement, it's genetically based-and potentially true.

-There is truth in this. Actually, lots of generations of ANY glider-pairings will relate in many problems. That is partially why we encourage people NOT to breed Perfect Pocket Pets gliders or rescues. Unknowingly breeding related grays will have bad results too.



Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927727
04/07/10 05:52 PM
04/07/10 05:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
With the leus, trying to find unrelated pairs can be challenging to say the least. With the mosaics, because you don't have to pair up mo to mo to get mo babies, I don't see any advantage to it, other than being inlove with two unrelated mos and wanting them as a pair. I also don't see any "initial" problems but if this becomes a common practice, given a few generations, all the mos will be related and the random mo/mo pairs would be almost impossible without inbreeding issues. I just think outbreeding is the better option.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927742
04/07/10 06:18 PM
04/07/10 06:18 PM

G
GliderDave96
Unregistered
GliderDave96
Unregistered
G



Wow... I gotta headache from that. There's 10 minutes I'll never get back. smile

Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927744
04/07/10 06:19 PM
04/07/10 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dancing
With the leus, trying to find unrelated pairs can be challenging to say the least. With the mosaics, because you don't have to pair up mo to mo to get mo babies, I don't see any advantage to it, other than being inlove with two unrelated mos and wanting them as a pair. I also don't see any "initial" problems but if this becomes a common practice, given a few generations, all the mos will be related and the random mo/mo pairs would be almost impossible without inbreeding issues. I just think outbreeding is the better option.



clap clap I Agree! Well stated.


Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #927758
04/07/10 06:50 PM
04/07/10 06:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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I agree as well smile


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927822
04/07/10 11:22 PM
04/07/10 11:22 PM
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North Fort Worth - TX
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Originally Posted By: Dancing

If you breed two mosaics, then you should be able to produce nothing but mosaics but that doesn't make either one or their offspring a "super mosaic".


If I remember correctly- Karin's double mo pairing just had a leu. So I guess that debunks the double mo's always produce mo's theory? Or does the always produce mo's differ when there's leu het %'s involved?


Ñancy
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Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: jacknsally] #927850
04/08/10 12:29 AM
04/08/10 12:29 AM
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Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Quote:
should be able


I didn't know about Karin's joey. But I have to ask, is she SURE it is a leu? Wouldn't that have to be "proven" out by breeding that joey to a non leu (or non leu het) and also a non mo? If that glider then throws a mosaic, would't it prove that "leu" to actually be a white mo?

Didn't someone recently have what they thought was a Leu throw a mosaic joey? Meaning that the parent glider is actually a white mosaic and not a leu after all?

Last edited by Dancing; 04/08/10 12:30 AM.

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Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927857
04/08/10 12:51 AM
04/08/10 12:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
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Glide_Bye_Lily  Offline
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Is there leu in her mosaics lineage? If not, I'm more likely to say it's a white mo.

But obviously I don't know anything about the gliders in question...


Allie
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: Dancing] #927898
04/08/10 06:55 AM
04/08/10 06:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
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BeckiT  Offline
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Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:
should be able


I didn't know about Karin's joey. But I have to ask, is she SURE it is a leu? Wouldn't that have to be "proven" out by breeding that joey to a non leu (or non leu het) and also a non mo? If that glider then throws a mosaic, would't it prove that "leu" to actually be a white mo?

Didn't someone recently have what they thought was a Leu throw a mosaic joey? Meaning that the parent glider is actually a white mosaic and not a leu after all?
I don't know about Karin's joey, but, I have a leu paired with a mosaic who is a 12.5% leu het. She's had 3 white joeys. The male is neutered. 1st female is paired with a gray and has had 2 gray joeys (none other that I've been told about). The 2nd girl I kept, she's not old enough to have joeys yet though.

This is Lanie: http://s141.photobucket.com/albums/r56/G...current=044.jpg

Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: jacknsally] #927902
04/08/10 07:34 AM
04/08/10 07:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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oakley  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: jacknsally


If I remember correctly- Karin's double mo pairing just had a leu. So I guess that debunks the double mo's always produce mo's theory? Or does the always produce mo's differ when there's leu het %'s involved?


I remember something about this... there CAN be 100% leu het MO's (that's what my Mowgli is) so two MO's could potentially produce a leu... now it WOULD be great if what looks like a leu could produce MO's AND Leu's.... would we all be on cloud9


Meghan

~__/>
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Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927903
04/08/10 07:36 AM
04/08/10 07:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline OP
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oakley  Offline OP
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Florida, USA
BekiT,

Isn't that interesting! I wonder if they are leu's or if you are REALLY lucky!


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: Mosaic Genetics (here we go again) [Re: oakley] #927938
04/08/10 09:59 AM
04/08/10 09:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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hwh4ev  Offline
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H

Joined: Dec 2008
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roseville, mi
beckit are they white mo's or leus? 12.5% such a low percentage in your mosaic.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
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