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What are the three Mosaic Lines? #940679
05/08/10 08:57 AM
05/08/10 08:57 AM

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NGS
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What are the three Mosaic Lines? Where did they come from? Who bred the lines? Thanks

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #940741
05/08/10 12:27 PM
05/08/10 12:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
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WI
Glide_Bye_Lily Offline
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Champ/ Tilly -unknown as far as I know, the lineage wasn't kept track of before them. This is a sterile line.

Mother White- was supposedly wild caught.

I don't know the third. HTH! smile


Allie
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Glide_Bye_Lily] #940745
05/08/10 12:42 PM
05/08/10 12:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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Priscilla has a Sally (mo) & Sal line with offspring that has no lineage before them.

I'm sure if one looked through all her mo's listed, there may be others.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: jacknsally] #940763
05/08/10 01:10 PM
05/08/10 01:10 PM
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Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
krysKritters Offline
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Mac & Cheese are also a mo line wink

Mac was a plat mosaic

Last edited by krysKritters; 05/08/10 01:15 PM.

Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: krysKritters] #940879
05/08/10 04:12 PM
05/08/10 04:12 PM
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Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Technically, there are only 2 lines: The Mac(and Cheese) Line and the Mother White Line. The sterile line, which would be the "third", is believed to have originated from the Mother White Line.

Mother White was owned by Helen Moreno. Helen Moreno inbred some her mosaics to the point of sterility, thinking that was the only way to breed mosaics(not knowing that you only needed 1 mosaic parent to produce mosaic joeys). The mosaics from Helen that were inbred to sterility are now referred to as the "Sterile Line" and the non-inbred/non-sterile mosaics from Helen are the "Mother White Line".

Champ and Tilly offspring are not the only sterile mosaics. Many of the lines simply do not have traced lineage(or it's simply been lost over time).

Also, it's unlikely that any gliders listed in the Pet Glider database as "wild caught" actually WERE wild caught. Mac and Cheese were bought from a pet store owner down in Florida and they were originally imported from a large glider mill in Indonesia.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #940882
05/08/10 04:24 PM
05/08/10 04:24 PM
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Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Technically, there are only 2 lines: The Mac(and Cheese) Line and the Mother White Line. The sterile line, which would be the "third", is believed to have originated from the Mother White Line.



Then what would you call the line from Sally & Sal? There are several mo's down the generations from them.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: jacknsally] #940899
05/08/10 04:57 PM
05/08/10 04:57 PM
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Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
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Nicole, So I will assume that the 3rd line you speak of from Mother White is Tilly?
Do you know where Sally came from? I thought she was another line from 2 greys.


Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: krysKritters] #940910
05/08/10 05:24 PM
05/08/10 05:24 PM
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Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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All of the gliders from Helen Moreno(be they sterile or not) are from the same line. The difference between the Mother White Line and the Sterile Line is that one was inbred and the other wasn't(as far as we know...). However, they're all from the same line. Assuming that the information is correct and Mother White was Helen's original mosaic, then that would mean that ALL of her mosaics originated from Mother White. So, technically, yes, they're all Mother White Line mosaics.

Yes, Tilly and Sally(and Cammie...I just found her on the database as well) are all from the Mother White Line, but they're from the inbred line from Mother White.

I'd suggest contact Priscilla for more details. She's the one who bought all of Helen's gliders from her, so I'm sure she could give you more information. I got my information from multiple breeders that have been breeder for many years and were breeders back when all the colored gliders were "new".

Krys, if you really want to learn about glider colors and genetics then I'd highly suggest setting aside some time and calling up some of the breeders that have been around for a while[Sheila, Judie, Priscilla, Susan, etc...] and having a chat with them. You'll find more in just a couple hours of talking then you'll find out in YEARS of being on forums. They're alot of fun to talk to and very helpful! I might not agree with all of the breeding practices of some of the older and bigger breeders, but that doesn't mean they're not full of knowledge and willing to help out us newbies. wink

If you can ever get ahold of Leyna, she's got a wealth of knowledge about glider genetics and history! Good luck with getting in touch with her though, heehee.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #940943
05/08/10 06:18 PM
05/08/10 06:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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Nicole, where are you getting your information that Tilly came from Mother White??? I have never heard this in my 6 years of breeding. It was always assumed that Tilly & Mother White were different lines.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941411
05/10/10 08:59 AM
05/10/10 08:59 AM

N
NGS
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NGS
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Thanks everyone for helping me with this. smile I am still researching and learning all I can about genetics the different lines. There seems to be some confusion with some of the info, does anyone know who is right? (Between Nicole & Lynsie) Thanks again. smile

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #941414
05/10/10 09:31 AM
05/10/10 09:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
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Poynette, WI
sketchyglider Offline
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I have only been breeding for a year or so but from talking to alot of the older breeders and people in the community, Tilly & Mother White are 2 different lines


Jessee slave to:
Ender :rtmo: & Valentine :leu: and 1 non-fuzzy kid Carleigh

I am SOOOOOO happy to finally be able to have my gliders back home with me! I have missed my babies soo much <3
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #941451
05/10/10 11:27 AM
05/10/10 11:27 AM
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Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135


Yes, Tilly and Sally(and Cammie...I just found her on the database as well) are all from the Mother White Line, but they're from the inbred line from Mother White.



If Sally/Sal are from the Mother White line, wouldn't they be listed that way, instead of no lineage at all?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #941507
05/10/10 03:04 PM
05/10/10 03:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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Originally Posted By: NGS
Thanks everyone for helping me with this. smile I am still researching and learning all I can about genetics the different lines. There seems to be some confusion with some of the info, does anyone know who is right? (Between Nicole & Lynsie) Thanks again. smile


It doesn't really come down to who is right. It comes to who has been given the correct information over the years. For the last 6 years I have been told that Tilly is her own line. I have a great granchild of Tilly and have worked with almost all of the breeders over the years. It's never been brought up before that Tilly came from the Mother White line, so I would just like to know where this information has come from.

From what I have been told over the last 6 years the 3 mosaic lines are:

Tilly
Mother White
Mac & Cheese

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941525
05/10/10 03:48 PM
05/10/10 03:48 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Sorry for not responding Lynsie, I just saw your questions.

Honestly, I don't remember who I heard it from. If I were you I'd contact Priscilla if you want to find out more about it. The majority of the breeders I've spoken to about glider genetics and the history of the different colors have been breeding gliders(namely "colored" gliders) for about 10 years or more, so I trust their information.

The lineage for the sterile lines is known, it's simply not posted anywhere, for some reason...it makes you wonder just how scary it really is that it's kept so tightly guarded, lol. I'm sure Priscilla has it or maybe even Mike McGrath(not that he cares about lineage...) or one of the other original buyers of sterile-line mosaics. Helen Moreno, of course, would know the lineage, but I wouldn't have the vaguest idea how we'd be able to contact her. :\


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941533
05/10/10 03:53 PM
05/10/10 03:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lynsie

From what I have been told over the last 6 years the 3 mosaic lines are:

Tilly
Mother White
Mac & Cheese


That because we now associate them as being 3 lines.

*Sterile Line(often referred to as the Helen Moreno Line)
*Mother White
*Mac(and Cheese)

I have the lineage for Nadine and it just says that her mom, Jasmine(owned by Kristopher DeRose), is from a mosaic female that is "3rd generation from the Helen Moreno Line". Just because there's no recorded lineage on Jasmine's mom doesn't mean that she's a new line. It just means that either the lineage wasn't tracked or that whoever DID track it simply didn't want anyone seeing how bad it was.

It wouldn't be the first time that lineages have been hidden or tweaked by breeders. It happens here in the glider community all the time, even by "reputable" breeders, unfortunately.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #941542
05/10/10 04:01 PM
05/10/10 04:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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Lynsie  Offline
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It just seemed odd to me because I learned most of what I know from Sheila, Judie and Priscilla and that had never been brought up before.

I don't think Kris ever beleived that Jasmines line was a new line, her breeder just simply doesn't keep track of lineages.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941552
05/10/10 04:08 PM
05/10/10 04:08 PM

J
JamieInWA
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So how do you determine if a glider is from a sterile line anyways? What I mean by this is...glider "x" has lots of grandparents/great grandparents and so on. Lets say that one of the gliders in the lineage is from a sterile line and then several are from a non-sterile line. Do you consider this glider to be of a sterile line because one of the descendants were? In order to make sure your line is "clean", how far back do you usually trace?

I don't know if my questions even make sense...if not I will try to re-phrase it.

sounds like there is a lot more known about the lineages than is posted for the rest of us to see.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #941578
05/10/10 05:08 PM
05/10/10 05:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Jamie, you should always check a glider's ENTIRE lineage. If there is a sterile-line glider in the lineage then all of the offspring of that glider should be considered "sterile-line" gliders, whether they're mosaics or not.

If a sterile line "proves out" by having a male(and all of his male offspring) then potential buyers should still always be informed that a joey is from sterile lines. They should be listed as being from a "proven sterile line". It should never say "non-sterile line" unless there are NO sterile-line gliders in the lineage, proven or not.

Word to the wise: never buy a glider without full checking the lineage ALLLL the way back. Color shouldn't matter. You should always be aware of what you are being BEFORE you get your glider. Also, if a breeder has the lineage listed on their website, make sure to double-check it with the databases(www.thepetglider.com and www.psgdatabase.com). Oftentimes there are typos or mistakes or parts of the lineage are hidden and make the lines look better then they really are.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #941664
05/10/10 08:10 PM
05/10/10 08:10 PM

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JamieInWA
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JamieInWA
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Nicole,
Thanks for the info. So then is the whole Mother white line considered sterile? Are there certain gliders to look for? I know Tilly and Champ. Which others would you want to be on the look out for from the sterile lines?

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #941680
05/10/10 09:01 PM
05/10/10 09:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
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Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
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This is something I've been interested in since before Blitzen (producing/now neutered sterile line mo) & Gabriella came to live with me. I've always wanted to figure out just which glider or gliders were the first steriles in these lines. And ultimately would like to know every sterile born from them. I wish there was no secrecy. What's done is done and I think all should be laid on the table.

Nicole & I recently talked about this but other things around here needed my attention and I couldn't keep up on my 'computer time.'

So is it correct to say that this mosaic female from the Helen Moreno line was the one carrying sterility? I have her paired with Poncho as Jasmine's parents. For those that haven't researched yet, Poncho is from Mac & Cheese referred to as a non-sterile line.

When this un-named mosaic female was paired with Poncho who did they belong to? Poncho's owner is unknown in the database and has only one joey listed ~ Jasmine (who's owner is also listed unknown.) ohwell So. Did this Helen Moreno line female mo get paired with another male?

I'd like to know what steriles were born from this Poncho/unamed female mo pairing. Like did Jasmine/Aladdin have a sterile glider? etc

As far as the Mother White line goes, it shows her paired with Hercules and their only joey listed is Snow White. Snow White shows to be owned by PP and BRED by PP meaning she would have owned Mother White (even though her owner is shown unknown.) Did PP get Mother White from Helen Moreno? If she did, how would we know that her and Tilly (proven sterile?) aren't related?

As always with lineage my head is spinning now so I must take a break! roflmao


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: DirtyPaws] #941693
05/10/10 09:23 PM
05/10/10 09:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Crystal, I don't know very much about the sterile lines because I've got no desire to breed them, so I haven't looked much into them, but I searched through some of my old emails to see if I could find out the info for you. When I was putting together the pedigree database on my website(there are too many errors in the public ones, so I did my own, lol) I asked Sheila about who bred/owned some of those lines, so you're in luck. wink

Well...according to my emails from Sheila...

Champ and Tilly were bred by Priscilla and Priscilla owns Snow White. She never owned Mother White, only Helen Moreno did. So, that means that the database is incorrect about Priscilla being Snow White's breeder. Unless, of course, Sheila was incorrect, but I trust her info more then I do the database, which can be altered by just about anyone, lol.

Also, I'm not sure who the sterility came from: Champ or Tilly... Helen had a sterile champagne line too. :\ I'm not sure if they(the sterile mosaics and the sterile champagnes) were all related or not. You'd have to ask someone who knows more about the sterile lines.

Poncho was a gray, not a mosaic. He was simply from a mosaic parent.

As for Jasmin and Aladdin, they are(were?) owned by Kristopher DeRose. So you'd have to ask him about their lines if you wanted to know more.

Hope that helps.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #941714
05/10/10 10:00 PM
05/10/10 10:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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Mother White/Snow White line is not sterile.

Champ is from the sterile champagne line. The males out of that champ line have not produced.

Jasmine was sold to Kris as possibly sterile, so he sold all the joeys as possibly sterile but the males have been proving out. Alladin is from CCW lines and that is not a sterile line.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941737
05/10/10 10:45 PM
05/10/10 10:45 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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I have Duffy and Viking (father and son) who are from Fuqua who is from the snow white/mother white line. If there is sterility in this line, it is news to me and my boys. Bet Alicia would be really surprised too since most of her gorgous glider factory comes throuh those lines too.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Dancing] #941739
05/10/10 10:49 PM
05/10/10 10:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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I'm thinking that if Tilly did come from Mother White, that the sterility in Tilly's line was not from Tilly but from Champ.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941764
05/10/10 11:48 PM
05/10/10 11:48 PM
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Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
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Ok, I had a feeling that PP being listed as Snow White's breeder was an error. And I too trust Sheila's word and also know there are errors in the data base ohwell

I knew Poncho was a grey and was assuming his mate to be the carrier of sterility. I just looked at him to see what joey's were listed to see if any had mother 'unknown.' Just trying to find out if there were more born to this unamed mo female.

Ok now, if Jasmine was labeled poss. sterile (she's from this unamed female mo from Moreno lines ~ for those just trying to follow here) Does that mean that 'we' know that steriles were already born to Jasmine's parents? Or the grandparents we can't find lineage for? I'm not questioning that Jasmine was/wasn't sold as poss. sterile I'm just trying to know the EXACT why.

Lynsie, I know you know KDR so I trust what you're saying about Jasmine & Aladdin. But I want to make sure I understand. NO steriles were born to them? Or you're just aware that some of the males proved out? Are you aware if all males were bred? I can't expect you to answer for him but this just may be knowledge you already know smile

Could it be that no more steriles were born in this line after this Moreno female mo? *ponders*

I also see where Champ was paired with Cammie and Julie. Could have been a trio. We would have to look at each of Tilly's joeys to see if any of her joeys/downline were sterile or just the ones where Champ was the father.

Could Tilly's line have been being called sterile when it was really Champ and his other girlfriends? (since we know HE had non-producing males) Or do we know of steriles directly in Tilly's downline.

Spinning again! Thank you all for sharing and putting this in black and white tounge


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lynsie] #941765
05/10/10 11:50 PM
05/10/10 11:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
The Mother White line(as we refer to it today) is NOT sterile. Sorry if that got mixed up in all my ramblings.

The sterile line is FROM the Mother White line, but they're simply offspring of that line that were inbred too much, resulting in sterility. Those gliders that became sterile are the "Sterile Line" or the "Helen Moreno Line". If a mosaic only has Snow White in the lineage, then it's NOT sterile(unless otherwise noted in the lineage).

Sorry you guys, I'm good at making things confusing. :\ I really suck at explaining things.

Lynsie, when I checked back on my emails from Sheila that made me wonder about Tilly too...I wonder if she was from the "sterile line"? Hmmm... Too bad Priscilla doesn't come on the boards, we could really use some of her input! She's probably one of the only people left that actually would have records of all the mosaics from Helen.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Guerita135] #941771
05/10/10 11:58 PM
05/10/10 11:58 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, I have a question.

Panda is out of Snow White on one side but that is not where the mosaic trait comes from. Snow White had Prince (grey) who had Prescott (grey) so that is not where the mosaic comes from.

The other side, is a platinum mosaic, Bianca. Bianca had Mirage who had Panda. It says Bianca's parents are unknown.

Does anyone know who Bianca's parents are/were?

Panda IS sterile.

http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=1137

The photo of Panda is not what he looks like today. He has really powdered out to where he almost looks leu except for a grey dot on his forehead and some real light grey hairs mixed in along his body that you can't really see unless you are in full light.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: DirtyPaws] #941773
05/11/10 12:00 AM
05/11/10 12:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,269
WI
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Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws
I also see where Champ was paired with Cammie and Julie. Could have been a trio. We would have to look at each of Tilly's joeys to see if any of her joeys/downline were sterile or just the ones where Champ was the father.

Could Tilly's line have been being called sterile when it was really Champ and his other girlfriends? (since we know HE had non-producing males) Or do we know of steriles directly in Tilly's downline.


I don't believe Tilly was paired with anyone other than Champ. At least there are no records on The Pet Glider of any offspring from any other male...


Allie
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Dancing] #941777
05/11/10 12:06 AM
05/11/10 12:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,823
Wichita Falls, Texas
DirtyPaws Offline
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Not to knock you outta the way Teresa, but I remembered I forgot to say something.....

I think if we just emailed and asked PP where Tilly came from she would tell us what she remembered. I had a question that only she could answer and I have never met her or spoke online with her and she was very nice to answer me and even give more info than I asked for. Unfortunately I was asking about a glider who was born to a breeding colony when records were not being kept ~ but she named who all was in the colony and said if I needed to know where any of them came from she could stir her memory.

I assume Tilly came from Moreno and PP may/may not know who she was born to though.


~~~ Crystal ~~~

Dot Dot heart Woobie heart Isabella heart Beetlejuice

heart Blitzy&Ella ~ Twinkie&Tiramisu ~ Dolly&Doobie

heart Taaska & Sadie ~ Teddy Bear Doodle & Sasha

heart Tiki, MoJo, Ruckus, Napoleon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: DirtyPaws] #941781
05/11/10 12:13 AM
05/11/10 12:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
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80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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Crystal, I thought about asking PP but well, it just is a curiosity thing with Panda. Doesn't matter really to me. He is here simply because he is Isis's cage mate and Isis was born here and now home again.

But I brought it up because he does have Snow White on one side but not sure who Bianca is from. Perhaps Helen Moreno?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: DirtyPaws] #941782
05/11/10 12:16 AM
05/11/10 12:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline
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Lynsie  Offline
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Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws
Ok, I had a feeling that PP being listed as Snow White's breeder was an error. And I too trust Sheila's word and also know there are errors in the data base ohwell

I knew Poncho was a grey and was assuming his mate to be the carrier of sterility. I just looked at him to see what joey's were listed to see if any had mother 'unknown.' Just trying to find out if there were more born to this unamed mo female.

Ok now, if Jasmine was labeled poss. sterile (she's from this unamed female mo from Moreno lines ~ for those just trying to follow here) Does that mean that 'we' know that steriles were already born to Jasmine's parents? Or the grandparents we can't find lineage for? I'm not questioning that Jasmine was/wasn't sold as poss. sterile I'm just trying to know the EXACT why.

Lynsie, I know you know KDR so I trust what you're saying about Jasmine & Aladdin. But I want to make sure I understand. NO steriles were born to them? Or you're just aware that some of the males proved out? Are you aware if all males were bred? I can't expect you to answer for him but this just may be knowledge you already know smile

Could it be that no more steriles were born in this line after this Moreno female mo? *ponders*

I also see where Champ was paired with Cammie and Julie. Could have been a trio. We would have to look at each of Tilly's joeys to see if any of her joeys/downline were sterile or just the ones where Champ was the father.

Could Tilly's line have been being called sterile when it was really Champ and his other girlfriends? (since we know HE had non-producing males) Or do we know of steriles directly in Tilly's downline.

Spinning again! Thank you all for sharing and putting this in black and white tounge


I'm not sure of how many of the males proved out, you would have to ask Kris about that. I just know that some of them have. I beleive Jasmine has produced mainly females so far.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: DirtyPaws] #941786
05/11/10 12:20 AM
05/11/10 12:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 841
Houston, Texas
gliderboy4life Offline
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gliderboy4life  Offline
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Houston, Texas
Tilly is a sterile line, champ is not sterile. Tilly was paired with another male, a WF named casino and produced sterility.

There are many different sterile mosaic lines, there is Sally, Ms. Leu, Lollie, Tilly, Helena, Heidi, Bianca and maybe a few others.

Priscilla took on only about 8 mosaics when she got them from Helen. It was believed that to produce mosaics there were hets. So that is how the sterility came about from continuous inbreeding.

Champ most likely came from the mosaic line, several joeys from the original mosaics appeared champagne.

I know Mother white was wild caught. She didn't live long. I think when she came in, a few others did-some of which might have been the ones listed above....not sure though. Odds are they are all related. What are the odds of catching such a different color in the wild and them not being related.

Anyways, we have snow white who is producing, this is most likely b/c it hadn't been inbred to the point of sterility.

A majority of mikes stuff came from helens line, so again related to the other mosaics.

There is NO record of any of the breedings done before priscilla got them. The records were according to helen eaten by her praire dogs. I doubt she kept records of the breedings anyways as it was not common or known to do so many years ago.

So there is my knowledge based on the 2 years working at TPG.

Take it or leave it,... but thats what i know!!!


Tyler Cleckley
www.GliderBoyGliders.com
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: gliderboy4life] #941790
05/11/10 12:27 AM
05/11/10 12:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Thanks Tyler, so Bianca's parents really are unknown. Sad. Granted it was only curiosity but would have been nice to know anyway.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Dancing] #941793
05/11/10 12:29 AM
05/11/10 12:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 841
Houston, Texas
gliderboy4life Offline
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Yes they are Teresa, by seeing these gliders in person you could tell most looked related with similar coloring. I believe Tilly was the most different. Most of the originals were white white mosaics.


Tyler Cleckley
www.GliderBoyGliders.com
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: gliderboy4life] #941812
05/11/10 02:32 AM
05/11/10 02:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 243
Illinois
tlc_in_chitown Offline
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Illinois
I also heard the same story of Helens records being eaten by her prairie dogs, lol. Talk to Priscilla and ask her about tilly and others. I talked to her for some time quite a while back and she was very informative. Tilly is the one that had and passed sterility that affected the males. Champ isn't the cause of the sterility in that line or he would have been sterile himself, because it affects the males. I agree with Tyler on this one.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: tlc_in_chitown] #941981
05/11/10 02:02 PM
05/11/10 02:02 PM

N
NGS
Unregistered
NGS
Unregistered
N



Thanks this is great information to have and beware of when researching the mosaic lines. smile

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #950263
05/25/10 02:27 PM
05/25/10 02:27 PM

N
NGS
Unregistered
NGS
Unregistered
N



would like to know if anyone else has any info please?

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #981001
07/25/10 12:04 PM
07/25/10 12:04 PM

N
NGS
Unregistered
NGS
Unregistered
N



Bumping this up.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013496
10/05/10 10:33 PM
10/05/10 10:33 PM
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USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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I was notified only minutes ago about the fact that Lollie is from a sterile line. The database was changed to show that she is but her daughter is producing males that are NOT sterile.

Does anyone know who the males are that are breeding in this line?

Why now after all this time was this just added to the database about the sterility in that line??? This information should have been in the database all along.

How "bad" is it to breed this line with a Leucistic line?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013534
10/05/10 11:40 PM
10/05/10 11:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 644
Cincinnati, OH
tacasper Offline
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Cincinnati, OH
SugarBlossoms do you have Lollie's pedigree somewhere that you could share? What about her mate?

You don't want to introduce sterility to the leu lines. Sterility can skip generations. Parents can also have say 12 nonsterile joeys, then produce a sterile one. You can't always tell where the sterility will show up. In my personal opinion breeders throw out the "from producing lines" way too quickly. If one joey from the line produces, that doesn't mean that all or any of the males will be producing.

Maybe with some lineage we could give you a better idea. If you are breeding FOR leucistic with a sterile line, then you should probably stop and have your male neutered or consider a different pairing, and sell any joeys as pet only. If one is a low het carrier, then that might be a different story.


Teri

Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com


Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013573
10/06/10 01:34 AM
10/06/10 01:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Yes, Lollie is my Mary Roses' grandmother, they are listed on the Pet Glider Database. The lineage is there, however, until tonight we knew nothing of any sterility in the lines. Nothing was ever noted nor told about this. I just myself heard about this a couple of hours ago.

When I got Mary Rose, the breeder assured me she would be a "perfect" mate for Abraham my Leucistic male. I waited years to get them and wanted to make absolutely sure there was no sterility in the lines and no inbreeding. I looked at several gliders the breeder had and Mary Rose was chosen in part due to the "fact" she would be the perfect mate for Abraham.

They have had four joeys, one male was neutered, one is in a tri with two females that are both HET for LEU AND they are ALL Mosaics. One female is going to a non-breeding home with 2 other females and one female has gone to a BREEDING home to go with a 100% Het for Leucistic.

So, out of the four, two (one male, one female) are in breeding homes. This is a huge concern to me and to the people who have them now as NO ONE knew a thing about this until last night.

Mary Rose is a platinum mosaic pinto and is het for leu and Abraham IS a Leu.



Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013644
10/06/10 08:17 AM
10/06/10 08:17 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,027
Iowa
Lindsay Offline
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Lindsay  Offline
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Iowa
So I have a feeling this has come about because of questions I was asking. Earlier in this topic or another related it was mentioned that Lollie was from sterile lines by Tyler. I didn't think anything of it until someone pointed out that my platinum colored white mo was from Lollie. I started asking people if they could confirm that she was or if they knew. I guess it turns out she is.

I really wish this had been caught sooner as well. I am just glad that I haven't paired my boy with anyone and can get him neutered. I do know the breeder I got him from has kept his brother to breed and didn't know they were from sterile lines either.


Lindsay

Owned by: Junior :grey: , Genevieve :grey: , and their two kids Sora :grey: and Jarren :grey:.

Also Ryuu.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013696
10/06/10 10:30 AM
10/06/10 10:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Ohio, between Dayton and Cinci...
pebbles1975 Offline
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pebbles1975  Offline
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Ohio, between Dayton and Cinci...
I have Harmony and she is from the line of Lollie and have seen no sterility from this line. I have a boy from this line and he is producing. As far as I know there has not been an issue with any of my gliders offspring, male or female.

Last edited by pebbles1975; 10/07/10 08:07 PM.

Angie

Harmony :rtmo: , Kahne :wfb: ,
Navaeh :leu: , and Nova :rtmo:
Marsh: albino/creme Het , Mellow: Albino

http://www.freewebs.com/clementsgliders/index.htm
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013699
10/06/10 10:37 AM
10/06/10 10:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 644
Cincinnati, OH
tacasper Offline
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That's really upsetting that you were deceived about your lines for a profit! It really sickens me that this mess could have been avoided if you had only been told.

I know that hendsight is 20/20, but I will not buy mosaics unless I can trace their lineage all the way back to Mac and Cheese or Mother White. If the breeder only has one or two generations listed then I would be worried that they could be from sterile lines.

Back when I was still new at mosaics I bought a $1600 sterile line mosaic who is also 100% leu het with intentions of breeding her. She is not breeding at the moment, until I could gather my thoughts and figure things out. I decided that if I do decide to breed her there are a lot of people who would love mosaics as pet only, and I do not plan to pair her with a glider with any chance of leu. I've decided that though I know her lineage, I will only find homes for joeys as pet only with no lineage provided.

It sounds like you have some decisions to make too. If you continue to breed her any joeys should be sold as pet only. You should probably reconsider your pairing or have the male neutered though.

Have you contacted the breeder that you got her from? Maybe she could give you some help or insight as to why this happened?


Teri

Owner of lots of beautiful suggies!
:bb: :wfb: :leu: :rtmo: :cream: :plat:

My fabulous rescue Nanuk
And Kiesha waiting in heaven

And two OCD and neurotic bulldogs Capone and Aspen!


www.sugarhighgliders.com


Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: tacasper] #1013772
10/06/10 01:27 PM
10/06/10 01:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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USA
Originally Posted By: tacasper
That's really upsetting that you were deceived about your lines for a profit! It really sickens me that this mess could have been avoided if you had only been told.

I was SPECIFICALLY told that my female was NOT from any sterile lines. I asked. I wanted to make sure she would be the "perfect" or correct if you will pairing with my Leu.

I know that hendsight is 20/20, but I will not buy mosaics unless I can trace their lineage all the way back to Mac and Cheese or Mother White. If the breeder only has one or two generations listed then I would be worried that they could be from sterile lines.

Her lineage goes way back, NOTHING showed there was sterility until it was entered into the database within the last day or so. However, as I understand it now, it WAS KNOWN all along by the breeder. I don't understand this frown


It sounds like you have some decisions to make too. If you continue to breed her any joeys should be sold as pet only. You should probably reconsider your pairing or have the male neutered though.

My Leu is getting neutered. I won't seperate them as they are a bonded pair and I can't imagine them apart from eachother. They are the ONLY breeding pair I have, I waited YEARS to get them and am not happy about any of this one bit to say the very least!

There is also other VERY UPSET people as they waited for their joeys to be paired with their gliders!




Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lindsay] #1013775
10/06/10 01:41 PM
10/06/10 01:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: Lindsay


I really wish this had been caught sooner as well. I am just glad that I haven't paired my boy with anyone and can get him neutered. I do know the breeder I got him from has kept his brother to breed and didn't know they were from sterile lines either.



There was nothing to be "caught" as it was obviously already known by the breeder but NOT told to "us"! I want to know exactly WHY we were not told and in MY case I was told my girl did NOT come from any sterile lines!

Mine have been together for over a year now and have 4 joeys! I am upset beyond belief right now!


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013777
10/06/10 01:46 PM
10/06/10 01:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Nicole, there was also another big breeder that left years ago. Remember TheGliderNest? Big Ern? I have Penelo from him, she is the great grandaughter of Snow White.

I don't know what or who to believe about the lineages anymore. This is all so messed up with all the secrecy that has apparently gone on for so many years.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013857
10/06/10 04:48 PM
10/06/10 04:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
I just received an "answer".

In part, I was told from the breeder that 'I never sell a sterile line glider for breeding without
letting the person know that the glider is from sterile lines. Otherwise I
consider a pet only female the same as a neutered male, cannot be used for
breeding.'


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013872
10/06/10 05:03 PM
10/06/10 05:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
But you were sold the glider "as a breeder"? sounds like some serious miscommunication.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013889
10/06/10 05:29 PM
10/06/10 05:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Bridget- I'm so sorry you are in this mess.

I agree - there is far too much secrecy. There are things that are talked about quietly amongst some, but are never released for general information.

I have known about the existence of the sterile lines, but I never really knew what they were. So, if a breeder would tell me a glider was "from producing lines" I'd accept that as the truth.

While there are some things that are "secret" - I also believe there are certain breeders who tend to keep things secret. Those breeders I just won't buy from - no matter how beautiful the glider! Because, when it comes to lineage, a "secret" is a LIE - and if someone can tell a serious lie like that - who knows when they are lying!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1013917
10/06/10 06:50 PM
10/06/10 06:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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USA
I was so happy to have finally found a female after months of looking to pair with Abraham, everyone knew about this and so many people were looking for the "right" girl for his lineage.

My original intention was to have them as my only breeding pair and when and if they had joeys, to buy HETS to go with the joeys to bring up my breeding pairs to a total of three.

I have never been a breeder, my boys are neutered. I had some joeys born here that I have kept and 5 that were either given away or traded for glider things, they got neutered once I found a good vet years ago.

I did NOT want to breed for the gray kids since there were already so many going into rescue and such so I got my Abraham (Leucistic) from Rebecca and went about looking for a mate for him.

I had him 9 months before we found his wife Mary Rose. They have been together over a year now and have had 4 joeys.

I am very upset right now trying to understand what has happened and what to do. I will be getting Hammy neutered and he will ALWAYS be with his Mary Rose. THAT is not the problem. The problem is that 2 of the joeys were sold to breeding homes. GOOD well respected homes to people I KNOW will always love them as pets FIRST...however, now where do we go from here?

We don't know if they should be bred at all?


Edited to add: I am done with the breeding "world". I thought I had done everything right to ensure as perfect of a pairing for breeding as possible. I don't know what to think about any of this. If Mary and Hammy end up with any more joeys right now, they will be the last ones born here. I will enjoy the gliders I have now which are mostly my rescues and of course, Sarah who I hand raised years ago. I recently had to rehome a few of my kids due to health and financial issues and personal life issues. I am reeling from the heartbreak of everything in the past few weeks, this just sent me over the edge.... I am done.

Last edited by SugarBlossoms; 10/06/10 06:55 PM.

Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1013920
10/06/10 07:14 PM
10/06/10 07:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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jacknsally  Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
Yes, Lollie is my Mary Roses' grandmother, they are listed on the Pet Glider Database. The lineage is there, however, until tonight we knew nothing of any sterility in the lines. Nothing was ever noted nor told about this. I just myself heard about this a couple of hours ago.



It was posted here 5 months ago by Tyler, so it's been publicly known for atleast that long. Not that I'm defending Priscilla's practices but she does have alot on her hands and getting updates into the database, I'm sure can cause her to be slow.

Mary Rose is only 2 generations away from Lollie who has NO lineage- I've always seen it recommended to have many generations back for breeding gliders. Have you actually spoken to Priscilla about how long the knowledge of Lollie producing sterile males has been known or are you going on pure speculation & believing there's been secrecy and a cover-up?

As for breeding sterile line gliders- when has the sterile issue ever skipped generations once it's fertility has been proved out? Jason is from that line & produces - he is from Jalo & is Lollie's grandson. He is 2 generations out from the Lollie


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: pebbles1975] #1013930
10/06/10 07:35 PM
10/06/10 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: pebbles1975
I have Harmony and she is from the line of Lollie and have seen no sterility from this line. I have a boy from this line and he is producing. I didn't know of this issue either. As far as I know there has not been an issue with any of my gliders offspring, male or female.

I have Motley, who is the mosaic son of Harmony and has produced 3 joeys so far with Dainty, WFB from Rebecca. The first twins did pass away but they had Chance, a beautiful white tipped, ring tailed mosaic on July 30th. He will be staying here with me for the purpose of expanding the mosaic lines, at least that is what the plan was. Why does it have to be so secretive? Why would you go ahead and breed gliders from any defective trait? shakehead


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: gliderma] #1013970
10/06/10 08:35 PM
10/06/10 08:35 PM
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North Fort Worth - TX
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Motley proved out- Jason proved out, where is the defective trait? We know females can carry it but if it's not present in a male who produces, how would he pass the sterile trait?

Has anyone ever had sterility appear in a glider after a male producing from a sterile line- which would make a male carrier? If so, who are they?

My boy's mother comes from a sterile line, all her boys that have had the opportunity to produce, have produced & the others didn't show signs of being sterile. So the chances of her carrying the sterile trait, seems to be pretty slim. Isn't it possible she doesn't carry this trait at all?

I'm a cystic fibrosis carrier- there's a chance my children are as well- but if neither are, then they don't have the mutated trait to pass onto their children. Their chromosomes would all be normal, meaning their children would not have the chance of being a carrier. Wouldn't this be the same with the sterile trait?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014000
10/06/10 09:12 PM
10/06/10 09:12 PM
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Nancy, you are correct.

Being from sterile lines does NOT automatically mean that the offspring carry the gene defect for sterility. If it was, there would be NO "producing sterile lines" now. There are those females that have produced breedable males.

The sterile gene was bred INTO the mosaics. I firmly believe it can be bred OUT as well. Me personally, I'm not willing to work with the sterile lines. I have so few joeys born here to start with.

The price that was paid for this gliders was NOT the price of a pet only glider and I believe that she was not told about the sterility in the lines. Why? I don't know. An over sight? A mix up? A case of a breeder having too many breeding gliders so a "mistake" happened?

I say that if she wants to continue breeding these gliders, that is totally HER choice to do so but I would be sure to let the potential buyers know that the "sterile issue" is there and to NOT cross any of those joeys into the leu lines. Just to be very careful with who they are paired up with.

Lord knows we have so many other breeders out there thinking that breeding defective gliders is perfectly ok. And like the cystic fibrosis, it is a "guarentee" that these gliders are carriers for the sterility.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: jacknsally] #1014012
10/06/10 09:43 PM
10/06/10 09:43 PM
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SugarBlossoms Offline
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Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
Yes, Lollie is my Mary Roses' grandmother, they are listed on the Pet Glider Database. The lineage is there, however, until tonight we knew nothing of any sterility in the lines. Nothing was ever noted nor told about this. I just myself heard about this a couple of hours ago.



It was posted here 5 months ago by Tyler, so it's been publicly known for atleast that long. Not that I'm defending Priscilla's practices but she does have alot on her hands and getting updates into the database, I'm sure can cause her to be slow.

Nancy, I have NOT been on the boards much and certainly NO ONE reads EVERYTHING on the boards anyway. I have not been concerned about lineages anyway since I am NOT looking to purchase more gliders and already had Abraham and Mary last May.

Mary Rose is only 2 generations away from Lollie who has NO lineage- I've always seen it recommended to have many generations back for breeding gliders. Have you actually spoken to Priscilla about how long the knowledge of Lollie producing sterile males has been known or are you going on pure speculation & believing there's been secrecy and a cover-up?

I recieved an email today from the breeder stating that there has been NO sterility in the lines going back SIX generations. If there is NO lineage then how is THIS known?


As for breeding sterile line gliders- when has the sterile issue ever skipped generations once it's fertility has been proved out? Jason is from that line & produces - he is from Jalo & is Lollie's grandson. He is 2 generations out from the Lollie


ALSO, I knew NOTHING about lineage when I got Mary Rose, that is why I had the breeder check the lineages of her gliders with my Abraham to ensure they were of the perfect pairing lineage wise and that there was NO STERILITY IN THE LINES.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014185
10/07/10 08:49 AM
10/07/10 08:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
Ohio, between Dayton and Cinci...
pebbles1975 Offline
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So how many generation have to be producing before you consider it bred out of the lines. So the question is when do you say that line does not have Sterility in it? I am rarely on GC anymore so I hardly ever read things unless they are told to me by other members that I need to read it.

Last edited by pebbles1975; 10/07/10 08:00 PM.

Angie

Harmony :rtmo: , Kahne :wfb: ,
Navaeh :leu: , and Nova :rtmo:
Marsh: albino/creme Het , Mellow: Albino

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Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014190
10/07/10 09:16 AM
10/07/10 09:16 AM
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Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
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The answer is that you never know if the sterility will pop back up. I was a big part of the conversation earlier this year because Nicole discovered that my mosaic, Preston was out of sterile lines. I started digging and asking questions. The biggest concern is that the sterility will re-appear if inbred (as is necessary to produce recessive colors like leucistics), I'm not even talking about severe inbreeding... just enough that decendants from the sterile lines are crossed again. That is the concern. The sterility is believed to be x-linked, however, there are different types of x-links... so we don't know if the offspring could still carry a genetic component of the defect.

As Tyler previously posted in the other thread, the sterile females are as follows:
Sally, Ms. Leu, Lollie, Tilly, Helena, Heidi, Cammie, Julie and Bianca

And just for the record, Snow white passed away a month or two ago. And many "original" gliders are identified as being bred and owned by Priscilla in the database... it's a default in the program, or was entered incorrectly in the beginning. (at one time I was sure that Priscilla had Mac and Cheese! blush )

Priscilla told me that she got the group of mosaics together from Helen. Snow White was the only one who did not pass on the sterility, as she was not inbred to that extent.

The best advice is to be smart about your pairings, be aware of sterile lines, and make sure to advise the new owners of the lineage and the possible ramifications and stigma.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...u_br#Post980582
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...e_mo#Post982348
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/976086/1
These three are the conversations that were had about the sterile lines... (and leu x leu breeding as well.)

Last edited by wildlifeangel; 10/07/10 09:26 AM. Reason: added links

Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
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Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014414
10/07/10 07:25 PM
10/07/10 07:25 PM
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SugarBlossoms Offline
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Try as I am, this all is like reading french to me! I just don't get it! frown


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014434
10/07/10 08:06 PM
10/07/10 08:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
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Ohio, between Dayton and Cinci...
pebbles1975 Offline
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Ok i was just talking with Priscilla and she did say something about the issue. Then she said that Jason was producing so not really knowing the issues with Mosaics i just took that as not sterile lines. I am really sorry for not understanding this more than I did before I bred them. She wanted me to help breed out the line so that is where I got confused. I thought sterility was just when a male was sterile i didn't know that it was a whole issue.


Angie

Harmony :rtmo: , Kahne :wfb: ,
Navaeh :leu: , and Nova :rtmo:
Marsh: albino/creme Het , Mellow: Albino

http://www.freewebs.com/clementsgliders/index.htm
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014457
10/07/10 09:35 PM
10/07/10 09:35 PM
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Michigan
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gliderma Offline
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I guess I'm confused then too. I thought sterile lines meant that the males were indeed sterile. The fact that my mosaic male is producing offspring would mean that he is not from a sterile line. I sure would like to be enlightened as to what makes a line sterile?


Lynn Martel
616-272-4374
989-400-5686
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014477
10/07/10 10:20 PM
10/07/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Quote:
The fact that my mosaic male is producing offspring would mean that he is not from a sterile line.


Just because you have a male that can produce, does not mean he is not from sterile lines, it means HE is not sterile. He can still come from a grandmother who produced sterile males. And it is possible for him to produce sterile offspring. A non sterile male from sterile lines would be considered (and commonly referred to) as being from a producing sterile line.

Since the females are not sterile, they can produce. It seems that by breeding out far enough, the sterility is being bred out but it has not been far enough to consider it a "non issue" anymore. And no, I don't have a clue how far out that would need to be. So, if your glider is from one of the "sterile lines" you need to be aware that the sterility COULD pop up again in either your joeys or their offspring or grandoffspring.

If you sell any of the joeys from sterile lines, you need to make sure the buyer knows they are from sterile lines.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Dancing] #1014590
10/08/10 08:12 AM
10/08/10 08:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
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Quote:
So, if your glider is from one of the "sterile lines" you need to be aware that the sterility COULD pop up again in either your joeys or their offspring or grandoffspring.


I live by this statement. It 'could' happen again later on.

While all of Astrid's boys that have not been neutered have proven not to be sterile. All of their offsprings are in a pet only home (Mary and Nancy) so there have never breen breed out again. And the boys who were neutered, vet said in his opinion there was no way they were sterile.

But what I wonder/only because I don't know. Can anyone show a lineage where sterility appears to be beed out (like Astrid's) but then later sterility pops up again. We always say it can happen but I have not been shown any lineage showing it. I'd love to see one.

I agree that if they came from a sterile line even if now producing, the buyer should be told that. How far back to we inform. on? 3 generations, 5, 6? I don't know.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014624
10/08/10 10:59 AM
10/08/10 10:59 AM
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roseville, mi
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hwh4ev Offline
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i also wonder if the sterility in the line that is bred out has come back with male joeys that are sterile.
if there are no lines to show this i then would assume the sterility would not come back.
i know of a breeder that has 9 generations out from sterility and is going to prove out 10 generations. so i am of the thinking it does not come back (as long as their is no inbreeding, of course).

regards,
nancy in detroit/fl


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: hwh4ev] #1014646
10/08/10 12:00 PM
10/08/10 12:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
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Originally Posted By: hwh4ev

i know of a breeder that has 9 generations out from sterility and is going to prove out 10 generations. so i am of the thinking it does not come back (as long as their is no inbreeding, of course).
nancy in detroit/fl


That is exactly the point. When sterile lines are bred to leu/creamino/albino, the recessive colors are always eventually inbred to produce the colors... not closely, but if there IS something in the genetics of sterile lines, then the possibility of it coming back in the recessive colors is quite high if the sterile lines are bred to recessive colors. The history needs to be known, especially as we do not conclusively know exactly how the sterility works.


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
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Minka-Marco
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Donnovin-Selina
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:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

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Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014684
10/08/10 01:51 PM
10/08/10 01:51 PM
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SugarBlossoms Offline
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Where does any of this help us though when a glider now only goes back TWO generations and the grandmother has ZERO lineage? (after being told the line went back 6 generations with no "inbreeding" and no lines with my male)

Doesn't this make the COI's that were originally told to now be FALSE?


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014700
10/08/10 02:14 PM
10/08/10 02:14 PM
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roseville, mi
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"but if there is something in the genetics of sterile lines"
with that quote i still would assume all these gliders that are breeding from sterile lines and not producing any sterility in the male joeys will continue on down the line without sterility. because if there were something in the genes it surely would of shown up by now.

regards,
nancy in detroit/fl
p.s. if there is no lineage on a glider it will show a 0 coi as there is no information for it to calculate.

Last edited by hwh4ev; 10/08/10 02:25 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: hwh4ev] #1014766
10/08/10 04:24 PM
10/08/10 04:24 PM

T
The_Pet_Glider
Unregistered
The_Pet_Glider
Unregistered
T



Hello everyone. I thought I’d try to clear some of this up. First I absolutely believe sterility can be bred out. When a female from a sterile line is bred to new blood, sterility begins to disappear quickly. Within a generation or two of breeding out, some or most of the boys will develop. We don’t know any absolutes or how this works but nature goes to work and little boys start producing again.

I have gone into the pedigree program and noted sterility to the original gliders that were inbred by their former owner. I hope this helps everyone.

The formerly sterile lines are some of the prettiest and most unique colorings I have seen. It would be ashamed to let these beautiful lines die out because we don’t understand exactly when the sterility is 100% bred out.

I feel compelled to share with all of you the emails where I disclosed sterility to the two people in question. You can judge for yourself if you think they were informed when they made their decision to purchase their little gliders. Each of them has received a copy of these emails and they are still posting about not knowing.

My email to one person: From: thepetglider@thepetglider.com
> To:
> Subject: RE: The Pet Glider: Sugar Gliders For Adoption: Mosiacs
> Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 12:28:42 -0500
>
> Hi A.,
>
> Her father is from a sterile line and obviously he is able to reproduce.
> However we don't know yet if his male offspring can reproduce since he's
> only having girls. This girl is another generation out so I think her boys
> have a good chance of reproducing. If you would like to be part of our
> research on breeding out sterility I will let you have her for $xxxx. The
> Jason female would be priced at $xxxx if we had completed our research on
> her line. We expect soon we will be able to call this new line a producing
> line. Females from sterile lines can always reproduce.
>
> I have females with less color that would be around $xxxx-xxxx if you are
> interested. The can still produce joey with lots of color.
>
> Priscilla

My email to B.: From: The Pet Glider <thepetglider@thepetglider.com>
To:
Date: May 20 2009 - 7:29pm
Hey B.,

There are no common ancestors until the 6th generation on Molly’s girl, which is great! This is a formerly sterile line. Molly has a sister Jalo who throws producing boys. One of the boys is Jason. Jason is Molly’s nephew and is an excellent producer. So you should have all producing boys. I love the sterile lines, the colors are just beautiful. We have bred most of them out to producing now. We have a shortage of sterile male. Lots of people want the sterile males because they get the color without having to pay the higher prices. Unfortunately we are not getting very many anymore.

I registered the little girl, here is her pedigree:

Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/images/male.gifHYPERLINK "http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=2037"Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

OOP Date : 2008/12/22
Color : Mosaic/Pinto
Genetics :
Remarks :
Priscilla
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬----------------------------------------------
I had sold M--- R--- as pet only. When B. said she wanted one baby from her but didn’t care if they bred I thought I was being nice by letting her breed for one baby to keep.
Here is B.’s comment to me about breeding a pet only mosaic:
I don't breed, my males are neutered. I bought Hammy (Abraham) from Rebecca

last December on a payment plan. (he is fully paid) I decided I would like

to find him a mosaic wife. (like he would know the difference..lol) I

would like to see if they will have a baby, if not fine...if anything goes

"wrong", he would be neutered. Him and his wife will always be here with

me.


I am sorry for the misunderstanding between A., B. and myself. I feel that I adequately disclosed the gliders genetic past.

I have edited this post to remove the names.

Sincerely,
Priscilla Price
The Pet Glider
713-213-2020

Last edited by The_Pet_Glider; 10/08/10 04:36 PM.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014775
10/08/10 04:49 PM
10/08/10 04:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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Originally Posted By: The_Pet_Glider


My email to Bridget: From: The Pet Glider <thepetglider@thepetglider.com>
To: virginiabound <virginiabound@insightbb.com>
Date: May 20 2009 - 7:29pm
Hey Bridget,

There are no common ancestors until the 6th generation on Molly’s girl, which is great! This is a formerly sterile line. Molly has a sister Jalo who throws producing boys. One of the boys is Jason. Jason is Molly’s nephew and is an excellent producer. So you should have all producing boys. I love the sterile lines, the colors are just beautiful. We have bred most of them out to producing now. We have a shortage of sterile male. Lots of people want the sterile males because they get the color without having to pay the higher prices. Unfortunately we are not getting very many anymore.

Priscilla, I was looking at SEVERAL of your girls for almost a YEAR. Mary was the best match according to you. There are many more emails that I will have access to as soon as a part for my computer comes in. I told you I wanted to have ONE breeding pair! I sent you emails when the joeys were born and pictures of them! I knew NOTHING about any of this until I got a phone call the other night. The email you have here is from MAY, 2009. I did not get Mary until MONTHS later.

WHERE does Mary go back SIX generations NOW?? Her lineage only shows her to her grandmother who has NO lineage only as of a FEW NIGHTS AGO!


I registered the little girl, here is her pedigree:

Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/images/male.gifHYPERLINK "http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=2037"Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

This does not work.

OOP Date : 2008/12/22
Color : Mosaic/Pinto
Genetics :
Remarks :
Priscilla
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬----------------------------------------------
I had sold Mary Rose as pet only. When Bridget said she wanted one baby from her but didn’t care if they bred I thought I was being nice by letting her breed for one baby to keep.
Here is Bridget’s comment to me about breeding a pet only mosaic:

Priscilla, you are mixing emails from looking at different gliders!

ALSO, I told you about Grace and how I was not into breeding because I was scared of rejection or anything that might go wrong. You suggested maybe I should look at a "cheaper" glider and to just have a mosaic and Leu (my only colored gliders) with my male being neutered.

I decided I wanted to try breeding with one pair, if they had HETS, to buy more unrelated HETS (since that would have been cheaper than buying the breeding colors to begin with) to eventually have THREE breeding pairs.

Mary was NEVER a PET ONLY or supposed to be from a Sterile line!!

I said what I did about ANY of the gliders we were looking at for Abraham that in the case of REJECTION or any problems that I would just get Abraham neutered. IN other words, that I would ALWAYS keep them together no matter what and my "try" at breeding would end at that point as I WILL NOT seperate a bonded pair!

I also said that IF they had babies I might end up keeping them because I am bad at letting joeys go! THAT is what I said!


I don't breed, my males are neutered. I bought Hammy (Abraham) from Rebecca

last December on a payment plan. (he is fully paid) I decided I would like

to find him a mosaic wife. (like he would know the difference..lol) I

would like to see if they will have a baby, if not fine...if anything goes

"wrong", he would be neutered. Him and his wife will always be here with

me.

See what I just wrote above.


I am sorry for the misunderstanding between Angie, Bridget and myself. I feel that I adequately disclosed the gliders genetic past.

Priscilla, this is NOT a misunderstanding!! Me and Angie are also NOT the ONLY ones having these issues either!Sincerely,
Priscilla Price
The Pet Glider
713-213-2020


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: queenduck] #1014791
10/08/10 05:31 PM
10/08/10 05:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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jacknsally  Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: queenduck
Can anyone show a lineage where sterility appears to be beed out (like Astrid's) but then later sterility pops up again.


I have asked for this several times & no one has answered- people just keep saying it "could".

I've given the example with the cystic fibrosis trait and it not possible of showing up again but still nothing. If sterility is due to a mutation in the chromosome, a glider who is not sterile, shouldn't have that mutation, so how would they pass it along and having it show up again?


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014799
10/08/10 05:58 PM
10/08/10 05:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
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roseville, mi
peronally i believe that if you take a glider from sterile producing lines and find a mate without the same ancestors they will produce and continue to produce non sterile males.
i dont think it could pop up some where with this breeding or other breeding pairs because it would of shown up already.
so i do disagree with the statements 'that it could come out again'.

now having said this, it is up to the breeder and buyer to make sure of what they are buying and to check the lineage as far back as possible.

with all that is coming out including the joeys with the
bouncy problem, i forgot the name of it, you best believe when i buy my mosaic i will know everything abt. it or i didnt do my homework.

regards,
nancy in detroit for now


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1014802
10/08/10 06:02 PM
10/08/10 06:02 PM

T
The_Pet_Glider
Unregistered
The_Pet_Glider
Unregistered
T



Bridget,

This is why I don't post. But it is hard to see you and another person posting that you had no prior knowledge of sterility when you were both informed. I posted the emails showing that you did know. Those are the facts. It is disappointing to see you trying to twist the facts.

If anyone wants to PM or call me I will be glad to discuss the detail. I just wanted the facts to be presented and I have done that.

Priscilla

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014828
10/08/10 06:51 PM
10/08/10 06:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
As I suspected, Priscilla did inform of the possible sterility in the lines. I have bought several of Priscilla's gliders, contacted her about others (including Astrid's line) and she has always been very helpful. I bought Astrid from someone else, Priscilla was no way responsible for filling in the blanks for me/additional information that was helpful but not needed, but she still took time out to update me on Astrid's relatives she has there.

breeders do need to take the responsiblity of informing buyers that their was or may be sterility in the lines, and often there is a lower price set on these mosaics, or they are sold with provisions in case they are unable to breed.

But buyers who plan on breeding also need to take responsiblity of checking the lines, having others look into the lineage for you in case you are uncertain of what you are looking for.

We all have to be careful when it comes to breeding, selling, and buying if we want to keep the best interest of these gliders above the best interest of our pocketbooks or potention sale of joeys.

Nancy, I see it all the time... 'It can pop back up' and I too have asked before and never been provided a link or a gliders name that popped up sterile after a few generations. So I'll keep watching for someone to show why they think this is possible.

Until then I'll just keep saying... it could pop back up.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014830
10/08/10 06:58 PM
10/08/10 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: The_Pet_Glider
Bridget,

This is why I don't post. But it is hard to see you and another person posting that you had no prior knowledge of sterility when you were both informed. I posted the emails showing that you did know. Those are the facts. It is disappointing to see you trying to twist the facts.

If anyone wants to PM or call me I will be glad to discuss the detail. I just wanted the facts to be presented and I have done that.


There is SEVERAL of us with the same issue, not just two!

The emails you put on here were NOT ABOUT MARY! There were MANY MANY emails concerning MANY different females over the course of many MONTHS! I have not twisted ANY facts!


Priscilla


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014834
10/08/10 07:12 PM
10/08/10 07:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Well you havent shown any facts just accusations and yelling. Calm down - be mature about this please.
I think Priscilla managed to come her calmly and state her side, posted proof, and didnt manage to yell at anyone.... I would think someone who is on forums a lot more than her would have the ability to retain some calm dignity.

If this is true start listing facts/proof dont pick apart everything she posted and just post random statements. Your going to get this bloody thread locked with your attitude.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014848
10/08/10 07:49 PM
10/08/10 07:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
And just what facts is that? Priscilla did not even want a contract. "I" ASKED!

Okay, how's this for a FACT???

Mary Rose Charlotte was $2,600.00! Is THAT a "pet price non breeding glider"?????

As far as I am concerned at this point, the people that brought all this up and is so upset about it and got ME upset must have had some kind of motive as NONE of this makes sense. Until any of them make their prescence known, I won't be back on this thread.

No one can even agree as to whether the Leucistic lines are/was or is being "tainted" by introducing sterile lines into them.

Since a breeder doesn't care about lineage and the fact that her records are not and have not been straight for years whether through their own fault or not, how can WE be told what is right or wrong for OUR gliders?

Priscilla, you have bred many gliders with no lineage. So does this make it alright for the rest of the community? I think not. I would NEVER had even looked at colored gliders if I'd known the things I do now!

We always tell people DO NOT BREED without lineage!

Where is my Mary's lineage now? Why has it been changed to only show to her grandma who has NO lineage? Where did Lollie come from? Was Lollie pregnant with Molly when she was "wild caught"?

It's heartbreaking that gliders were brought over to the U.S for the sole purpose of profit. They are animals for God sake, not toys made of wood!

The Leucistic, mosaics and all other colors are solid unless there is close inbreeding in the lines. These lines have been inbred from the very beginning to get a lot of the colors we see. So what has changed apparently? Nothing.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Obsolescenttears] #1014849
10/08/10 07:55 PM
10/08/10 07:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: Obsolescenttears
Well you havent shown any facts just accusations and yelling. Calm down - be mature about this please.
I think Priscilla managed to come her calmly and state her side, posted proof, and didnt manage to yell at anyone.... I would think someone who is on forums a lot more than her would have the ability to retain some calm dignity.

Of course.

If this is true start listing facts/proof dont pick apart everything she posted and just post random statements. Pick apart? She has "picked" emails from 1 1/2 yrs ago that has NOTHING to do with any of this! Of course, I am going to defend myself against such garbage! Your going to get this bloody thread locked with your attitude.


Darn right I have an attitude! I was LIED to, blantantly LIED to and am getting more lies on top of it!


Tell you what Priscilla, you want the last word? You can have it! The damage you have caused has already been done.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014852
10/08/10 07:58 PM
10/08/10 07:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave
wildlifeangel  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,414
Minneapolis, MN
Please calm down. Your ranting is doing no good.

It is a well-established fact that the mosaics that Priscilla got came from original sources and priscilla started keeping their lineages when there was none recorded prior to that.

Lolli was on the list of the original sterile line mosaics that came from Helen Moreno. There is no prior records because the "prarie dogs ate the records" of the sterile-line mosaics.

Can you produce any documentation about the price you paid? Or anything about your glider that Priscilla sent you?


Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1014864
10/08/10 08:20 PM
10/08/10 08:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Obsolescenttears Offline
Glider Explorer
Obsolescenttears  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 272
Minnesota
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
And just what facts is that? Priscilla did not even want a contract. "I" ASKED!

Yeah, she doesnt do contracts - her choice, her gliders, her business, a lot of people dont do contracts. I havent signed a single contract with Priscilla and I have gotten several gliders from her... not sure how this is some horrible thing...
Okay, how's this for a FACT???

Mary Rose Charlotte was $2,600.00! Is THAT a "pet price non breeding glider"?????

Thats Priscillas price, you have a problem with it take it up with her privatly, airing it here has no place. And how long ago did you get that glider? Many gliders were 3K plus for Mo's even 6mo ago, so perhaps that was pet only price.

As far as I am concerned at this point, the people that brought all this up and is so upset about it and got ME upset must have had some kind of motive as NONE of this makes sense. Until any of them make their prescence known, I won't be back on this thread.

Good because your doing nothing to help this thread acting like this.

No one can even agree as to whether the Leucistic lines are/was or is being "tainted" by introducing sterile lines into them.

Since a breeder doesn't care about lineage and the fact that her records are not and have not been straight for years whether through their own fault or not, how can WE be told what is right or wrong for OUR gliders?

breeders care about lineage, and so does Priscilla, but things are big picture to her - and within the small community we feel things are different. Its her viewpoint. You have a problem with it thats your choice, but you cant do anything about it, and she DOES CARE, and frankly your accusations are immature.

You really need to see the big picture, you refuse to - thats your choice, im not going to speak logic to someone who isnt willing to listen.
Priscilla, you have bred many gliders with no lineage. So does this make it alright for the rest of the community? I think not. I would NEVER had even looked at colored gliders if I'd known the things I do now!

Well glad you know, now, make choices/changes based on things you see/hear that you dont like.

We always tell people DO NOT BREED without lineage!

Where is my Mary's lineage now? Why has it been changed to only show to her grandma who has NO lineage? Where did Lollie come from? Was Lollie pregnant with Molly when she was "wild caught"?

It's heartbreaking that gliders were brought over to the U.S for the sole purpose of profit. They are animals for God sake, not toys made of wood!

I agree completely, but SHOCKER gliders came over here in the beigining just for profit, you wouldnt have gliders if they hadnt, and we need new gliders to come over for new blood. Its the way of any industry, any animal breeding system, importation is a fact of life - and again this isnt the topic of this thread.

The Leucistic, mosaics and all other colors are solid unless there is close inbreeding in the lines. These lines have been inbred from the very beginning to get a lot of the colors we see. So what has changed apparently? Nothing.




Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014865
10/08/10 08:20 PM
10/08/10 08:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Bridget, I said price could reflect it coming from a sterile line. If it is a male and that line has not proven out to be now producing, you will always find the price lower with a few exceptions. I can name one glider who was bought from P for $2500 and very sterile, known to be sterile, his price was based on his color. This was several years ago.

I know of another male neutered and bought as a pet only just last year for $2500. And I have a female that was bought for pet only also for several thousands. Sometimes you are paying for breeding, sometimes you are paying for rarity. Sometimes both.

Sterile line females will always produce but often their price is also seriously reduced.

I paid $3700 for Astrid several years ago. She is very unique, very pretty, and I had no promise her boys would produce. I was told her boys 'might' produce. I paid that price for her because she was the dream glider I wanted, not for what she would produce. I have been very careful with her line, but that is my own personal choice. To each their own. Astrid's mom is from the Kitty line, she was paired to a leu. Not my choice and not something I would have done. However, we each have our own opinion. I have chosen to pair her, and her few offspring, with NO leu in the lines. But there are others that have done it. Priscilla is not the only one that would suggest a pairing like that, there are others who would have.

As for when you got your emails and when you received your glider... that proves nothing. There are many people who pay on a glider for quite sometime (deposit/downpayment) before they actually recive their joey. This is not an uncommon practice.

You have said you were not exactly sure of what you were looking for/lineage and breeding. Did you share your possible pairing with friends who have simular beliefs, ideas of what she be breed to what?

What I choose to pair my gliders with are different than what Priscilla might, but they are also different than what Adri might. The advise you get from a breeder is only their opinion. They can't possible have all the same beliefs as you. It often best to share lineage with friends before you choose a future mate.

People should be buying gliders for pets first, breeding second. It should be the one you have to have, the look you want, that way you are never dissapointed if they don't produce what you want or never produce at all. You should be able to walk away happy once that joey is paid for knowing you may never produce a joey or a dime in return.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014867
10/08/10 08:26 PM
10/08/10 08:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
And, yes, Priscilla has breed gliders with no lineage. Most of us that have been around as long as I have (8 years) have all done it. Those before me most definantly did. That was the only way at the begining.

If it wasn't for those older, larger breeders (Judie, Sheila, Priscilla) who actually thought... Hey, maybe we should keep trak of all this stuff.


Then our lineage wouldn't be as good as it is.

Did they make mistakes in doccumentation? Heck yes.

Did they make mistakes in breeding? Heck yes.

But prior to them no one even tried. At least they started the ball rolling, to now kick and scream and yell that they did it wrong, it not right. You have to start somewhere and it was them that started.

I thank them all for that. And I thank all of them who have sat on the phone with me, and in person, and gave me ideas of how to get started. I took all of their advice, some I used, some I didn't.

That is what makes us all different.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: SugarBlossoms] #1014874
10/08/10 08:56 PM
10/08/10 08:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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jacknsally  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms


Where is my Mary's lineage now? Why has it been changed to only show to her grandma who has NO lineage? Where did Lollie come from? Was Lollie pregnant with Molly when she was "wild caught"?



It doesn't look any different than a few days ago. What do you records of Mary's lineage say? Or do you not keep a copy for yourself & rely on the psg database?

Mistakes happen- Did Priscilla purposely lie to you on the line having sterile in it's history, I highly doubt it. That wouldn't help breed out the line. There would be nothing for her to gain in a lie, I highly doubt the loss of your sale would have had any effect on her.

Now you know and it's time to move forward. Can you still be upset, some would say yes, but it's not getting anyone anywhere. Ranting/raving & pointing fingers isn't changing anything. There's quite a bit to learn from this experience and I'm sure others have also.

Go and enjoy your gliders for what they should be- your pets.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: queenduck] #1014880
10/08/10 09:05 PM
10/08/10 09:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Bridget, it is clear that Priscilla was talking to you about one of Molly's girls in her email. Even if it wasn't your Mary Rose Charloette, it was an offspring of Molly so that glider has the exact same lineage of the girl you eventually did buy, so I assume she is speaking of your Mary Rose Charloette. Also right before providing you lineage on the glider she is obviously speaking of, she lists her parents... Molly/Rome. So this little girl she is listing, has the same parents of Mary Rose Charloette.

The reson her link she provided you with full lineage does not work now, is because she must have coppied your old email. That link no longer works because once you registered her as Mary Rose Charloette, and no longer as joey from Molly/Rome, she would have removed the old lineage. She didn't provide a bad link, she provided a link that no longer works because you went in and added MRC yourself.

Quote:
My email to B.: From: The Pet Glider <thepetglider@thepetglider.com>
To:
Date: May 20 2009 - 7:29pm
Hey B.,

There are no common ancestors until the 6th generation on Molly’s girl, which is great! This is a formerly sterile line. Molly has a sister Jalo who throws producing boys. One of the boys is Jason. Jason is Molly’s nephew and is an excellent producer. So you should have all producing boys. I love the sterile lines, the colors are just beautiful. We have bred most of them out to producing now. We have a shortage of sterile male. Lots of people want the sterile males because they get the color without having to pay the higher prices. Unfortunately we are not getting very many anymore.

I registered the little girl, here is her pedigree:

Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/images/male.gifHYPERLINK "http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=2037"Rome/Molly - 12-22-08

OOP Date : 2008/12/22
Color : Mosaic/Pinto
Genetics :
Remarks :
Priscilla


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014907
10/08/10 09:40 PM
10/08/10 09:40 PM

J
JamieInWA
Unregistered
JamieInWA
Unregistered
J



Please keep rule 4 in mind when posting.

Quote:
4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.

Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1014989
10/08/10 11:35 PM
10/08/10 11:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Just wanted to follow up to Jamie's rule 4. Next person that posts here that violates rule 4 and wants to start drama will have their account suspended.

This is a good topic, we don't need finger pointing, name calling, drama starting etc.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: gliderdad79] #1015087
10/09/10 09:06 AM
10/09/10 09:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Quote:
And just what facts is that? Priscilla did not even want a contract. "I" ASKED!

Okay, how's this for a FACT???

Mary Rose Charlotte was $2,600.00! Is THAT a "pet price non breeding glider"?????



Opps, quoted wrong, the quotes were posted by Bridget.


Bridget, I keep thinking of that price you say you paid for Mary Rose.

What color is she exactly? Is there any way you can post a picture of her. I'd love to see what she looks like.

A few years ago the price was much higher for sterile line mosaic females, but last year it went down. I agree that $2600 does not sound quite right for her. Are you sure that was just for her, or did that include something else, shipping, etc. Like I said before, I've seen some really pretty mosaics go for higher than that and not be intended for breeding, but that doesn't really follow Priscilla's normal pricing range. But I'd have to see a picture of her to know for sure.

Quote:
As far as I am concerned at this point, the people that brought all this up and is so upset about it and got ME upset must have had some kind of motive as NONE of this makes sense. Until any of them make their prescence known, I won't be back on this thread.


I don't understand this at all. Not sure what you are talking about but it you are saying your not coming back until someone else comes back (I'm confused) that is a shame. This is a great topic and a lot can be learned about breeding, pairing, genetics here.

Quote:
No one can even agree as to whether the Leucistic lines are/was or is being "tainted" by introducing sterile lines into them.


Lots of us can agree on this Bridget. This case is not the first case of a sterile line mosaic to be mixed into the lue line. Some of the leu lines were crossed and leus were the result. I can not remember who it was but I am sure someone will come in here and tell us. It was either Jennifer Bender, Stacie or Helen. DON'T SHOOT ME, I really can't remember.

And then with my Astrid her sterile line mosaic mother was paired to a leu. So Astrid is also 100% leu het.

I choose to keep the sterile line (I only have the 1) tightly regulated. Let me show you why..


Here are the joeys that have resluted from Mary Rose. Now, if the database is wrong, please correct me.



Buddy (Dustin) 2010/02/04 White Face 100% Het Leucistic

Cheryl Beth 2010/02/04 Classic Grey 100% Het Leucistic

DewDrop(Suggiemom1980) 2010/06/26 Mosaic/Pinto het for leustic

Lucy 2010/06/26 Mosaic/Pinto Mosaic Pinto/Platinum 100% Het Leucistic

Buddy is a wfb and leu het. So if he is able to produce, the line is prob. clear. If not, well then he will be sterile and can't pass anything on.

Cheryl Beth a classic gray and 100% leu het. So she will be able to produce if placed in a breeding situation (this one I would have placed in a pet only home). She not only has the chance to pass on the sterile line to a leu situation, but... also in a gray situation. So you could have a line of sterile line producing females that are gray or leu.


Dewdrop is a male mosaic, same as with Beuddy. He will eithor produce or he won't. If he produces than the line is probably good, if not, end of that line.

Lucy, a mosaic female. She has the same chance of producing gray, leus if paired with a leu het, or mosaics. So same chances of making a sterile line of lues and grays and now mosaics as Cheryl Beth. This one I also would have placed pet only.

But that is my opinion. Had someone contacted me about my opinion and pairings, that is what I would have told them.

But I know that othesr out there hate that I am breeding Astrid at all. Had you bought a sterile line mosaic female from me, I'd advise you to do what I do. And then this could be a post about me. People saying... what the heck, how could she have advised you of that?

In breeding you have to take the advice you get from a breeder and realize, that is the what that one breeder would do it, but it might not be something you want to do, might not be something that the 'community' wants you to do. Priscilla can only advise you and what 'she' would do. You ultimately have to make your own choice.

Personally, I would not panic. I would breed and handle Mary Rose's joeys just as I have with Astrid's joeys. But if you are uncomfortable with that, have her mate neutered. You have gotten mosaic joeys from her already, she has had the oppertunity to be a mother. Let her have the next set of joeys, neuter dad and any male joeys and have yourself one big happy family.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: queenduck] #1015302
10/09/10 05:42 PM
10/09/10 05:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: queenduck

Here are the joeys that have resluted from Mary Rose. Now, if the database is wrong, please correct me.



Buddy (Dustin) 2010/02/04 White Face 100% Het Leucistic

Cheryl Beth 2010/02/04 Classic Grey 100% Het Leucistic

DewDrop(Suggiemom1980) 2010/06/26 Mosaic/Pinto het for leustic

Lucy 2010/06/26 Mosaic/Pinto Mosaic Pinto/Platinum 100% Het Leucistic

Buddy is a wfb and leu het. So if he is able to produce, the line is prob. clear. If not, well then he will be sterile and can't pass anything on.

Cheryl Beth a classic gray and 100% leu het. So she will be able to produce if placed in a breeding situation (this one I would have placed in a pet only home). She not only has the chance to pass on the sterile line to a leu situation, but... also in a gray situation. So you could have a line of sterile line producing females that are gray or leu.


Dewdrop is a male mosaic, same as with Beuddy. He will eithor produce or he won't. If he produces than the line is probably good, if not, end of that line.

Lucy, a mosaic female. She has the same chance of producing gray, leus if paired with a leu het, or mosaics. So same chances of making a sterile line of lues and grays and now mosaics as Cheryl Beth. This one I also would have placed pet only.



Just as you did with Astrid's boys - she could also let the females go into very selected/trusted breeding situations to watch/monitor the sterile line issue. Just pair them with the thought that the sterility issue is there and don't taint and cross any lines. Answers to whether the sterility is being passed on or been bred out can be answered in just a couple male joeys from the females.

I don't see anything wrong with trying to breed out the sterility if done carefully & properly and it doesn't cause damage to any other lines.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1016969
10/13/10 08:29 AM
10/13/10 08:29 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,027
Iowa
Lindsay Offline
Glider Guardian
Lindsay  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,027
Iowa
Just as a quick question. What would you all charge for a pet only producing sterile line white mosaic with some platinum coloring on his back? I got him back in May this year so I am kind of looking for pricing as of that time.


Lindsay

Owned by: Junior :grey: , Genevieve :grey: , and their two kids Sora :grey: and Jarren :grey:.

Also Ryuu.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: Lindsay] #1016993
10/13/10 09:22 AM
10/13/10 09:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis
queenduck  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
Lindsay, it is subjective and up to each breeder. If it were me I'd have to know personality and see how white he is.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1017089
10/13/10 12:00 PM
10/13/10 12:00 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
I have Panda here and I wouldn't let him go to anyone at any price (except Gina if she gets to the point she wants him and Isis back and then I'll cry forever over loosing Isis again). But it isn't because of his coloring. It is 100% about his awesome playful, extremely well socialized and friendly personality.

I think that personality is worth more than coloring. I'll take the most common colored glider with the best temperment and personality over the most gorgous colored unsocial glider every time and be willing to pay more for it.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1017103
10/13/10 12:22 PM
10/13/10 12:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
krysKritters Offline
Glider Addict
krysKritters  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,664
Hudson Valley, NY
agree


Krys DeRosa
Godfather of the NY Glider Mafia

KrysKritters.comcloud9

A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world.
Re: What are the three Mosaic Lines? [Re: ] #1049267
01/01/11 08:06 PM
01/01/11 08:06 PM

S
StarlightGliders
Unregistered
StarlightGliders
Unregistered
S



Oops... nevermind.

Last edited by StarlightGliders; 01/01/11 08:09 PM.
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