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Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849530
10/08/09 01:50 AM
10/08/09 01:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
"Family Stick"

Haha that got me laughing!
Now back to the serious conversation...



LOLOLOL! I giggled when i read that too!

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849535
10/08/09 02:01 AM
10/08/09 02:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
My boy is wiggly and shaky all the time. He can't jump or glide, when he tries he flips over on his back and falls like a brick. He has no instinctual fear of predatory animals, none of people either, and was lucky to survive past his 12 week because of the intensive attention he required to eat and drink sufficiently when he was 7 to 12 weeks oop. I have never been able to get it diagnosed, but the problem with finding these genes is that a glider suffers for it. You can't leave a trail of casualties for the ideal of a better lineage in the end. The most ethical thing to do is to retire lines proven to carry the bad gene, and move on. If it doesn't express it's not a problem...but once it is expressed it should be removed from the gene pool to keep it from spreading.

My boy is perfectly happy and is the sweetest boy ever...I don't know if he'll die early or live to be old and even more grey...but there was a joey born with a deformed respiratory system and internal defects that caused him a lot of pain before he had to be put to sleep at 12 weeks old. The parents were separated and paired again with new mates. This is what should not be done.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849537
10/08/09 02:03 AM
10/08/09 02:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
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Originally Posted By: GliderFun
but forget about color... that's unimportant. What about genes that are lined to diseases, heart failure, obesity, liver failure, kidney failure, and the list goes on.

Is there a way to test for these genes with blood tests?

Color should be a secondary thing... the health of the gliders, now shouldn't that be more important then what color gene they're carrying?????


I'm unaware of a glider genome project. In fact, they haven't clearly linked genes to the diseases and conditions you mentioned in humans - for which there has been an active genome project for decades. We don't even understand all the color genetics for gliders, and now you want us to prevent obesity and liver failure?

May I gently suggest you start your own thread? When you say - Color should be a secondary thing - that could be right. However, THIS thread is about Leu to Leu breeding. So, for the purpose of this discussion, Color is Primary, not secondary.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ValkyrieMome] #849539
10/08/09 02:36 AM
10/08/09 02:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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I'm not saying color is not primary in THIS discussion but in context to what was being said, color should be secondary.

What i was commenting on was something unrelated to this thread to begin with (testing glider genetics to find out what color they have in their genetics)

The thread is on leu to leu breeding and if it's safe. Neither what the OP posted nor what I replied with was on topic.

I'll try to stay more on topic though from now on

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849542
10/08/09 03:25 AM
10/08/09 03:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Let's just say that you DID do this inbreeding project and you inbred the lines and found and weeded out any genetic health issues...

What about all the sick and/or dead joeys along the way? What of them? Would you do what the labs do when they're breeding mice(seeing as how that's the comparison being used) and just kill and toss the joeys with defects?

What you're saying makes a bit of sense, yes. However, it is NOT practical and is cruel to even THINK of doing to these animals that we love so much.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849548
10/08/09 04:58 AM
10/08/09 04:58 AM
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Posts: 324
NY
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GliderFun Offline
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In my opinion sometimes you have to sacrifice some for the greater good of others.

Like when a mother gives a vital organ to a dying child so the child can live even though she dies.

Or, hope no one takes offense to this but what about the thousands of American men and women who sacrifice their lives for the greater good of the United States for years to come so we can have freedom and live good lives. What happens when/if they die? We bury them. We care about what happens to them but we commend them for the sacrifice they make for US.

The same thing can go for sugar gliders. We would have to sacrifice some for the greater good of the lines for years to come.

You can humanely put them to sleep or keep them to live out their lives with you and not breed.

If this was done, and done correctly, we would never have to do it again and we would have healthier gliders for years to come.

It just seems like by not doing this will just lead to THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of slightly/moderately sick animals who suffer ever slightly/moderately and die younger INSTEAD OF a SMALL amount of gliders who may suffer a bit more, but its for the greater good.

I understand everyone loves them so much, but shouldnt we be doing something productive to ensure the future generations have HEALTHY gliders that will live long lives to love too.

If we spread poor genes, our future kids will have sickly gliders.



ALSO QUOTE FROM ABOVE

"The most ethical thing to do is to retire lines proven to carry the bad gene, and move on. If it doesn't express it's not a problem...but once it is expressed it should be removed from the gene pool to keep it from spreading."


so we should only deal with what we see and not with what we dont see. What about the issues being passed down through recessive genes? What happens when we start to find EVERY line finally expressing the bad genes because we cross contaminated all the lines and now they all carry the recessive for bad traits? Then we stop breeding every line, get some wild caught gliders and start over because that's what I think will happen.

It's like all the gliders in 10 years down the line being white face, white tip creamino mosaics, who are het for leu and het for platinum EXCEPT Substitute the colors for severe genetic disorders.

Anyway, sleepy time for me. I'll check back tomorrow! :-)

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849553
10/08/09 05:35 AM
10/08/09 05:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
In my opinion sometimes you have to sacrifice some for the greater good of others.


I want to say SO much in response to that, as I'm sure many others will when they read this, but I don't think I'd be able to type a g-rated response, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.

I hope that a mod comes by to shut down this ridiculousness before everyone else wakes up and wants to put in their $0.02... It ain't gonna be pretty!


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849554
10/08/09 05:36 AM
10/08/09 05:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Just one little thing to think about: gliders aren't making the decisions for themselves, you'd be making it for them! When a HUMAN makes a sacrifice(organ donation, joining the army, etc...) they do it of their own accord and of their own free will based on what they believe to be for the greater good.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849576
10/08/09 07:44 AM
10/08/09 07:44 AM

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lovely1inred
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GliderFun, you suggest we "eliminate" the bad recessive genes from the lines by strict inbreeding, when it's already known that gliders have a low tolerance for inbreeding. You would have breeders intentionally breed healthy gliders into sick ones tobe destroyed? I have to agree, there is not a problem with the genetics unless a poor trait can be expressed, even a recessive gene will come out eventually and I rather doubt 200 gliders later.

Like Guerita said, the gliders do not have a choice, they do not choose their owners, they live with the decisions we make for them. And what about the sad, sickly joeys sure to be born from such pairings? Are you willing to eliminate them? Why bring such gliders into the world when there are so many in same or similar conditions not through poor breeding but neglect and abuse from their owners - which again, they did not get to choose. Today's breeders are stewards, they are watching the bloodlines and thinking about the next generation. Kitsune's breeder is probably well-known within the breeding community, and I'm sure all the breeders that would deal with him/her already have well thought out plans about whether they would buy joeys or acquire breeding stock etc.

No one is going to "start over" with wild-caught gliders. That's absurd. Australia and the US both have laws about import and export and their wildlife, and anyone that does go out to harvest wild-caught gliders is breaking many, many laws and killing a lot of animals in the process.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Dancing] #849598
10/08/09 08:36 AM
10/08/09 08:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
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Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
Color is the Least of what establishing a DNA base line could do. Quite frankly, the fact that long term glider people would not want genetic backup for what is going on with their animals.
Who wants to pay extra to know the animal is clean? Me!!
For goodness sake, can you imagin why I'm frustrated?

If just a few of the bigger breeders gave samples (which could be taken like birds with a nail [censored], not put them under. Not sure how that was the only option. We use hair samples in the lab on large animals, gliders would need to do blood or figure out a way to do a hair pinch without making the gliders hate us.)
Honestly if everyone got together it wouldn't be that hard to get a collage or lab to run samples.
If I could for it for fun(take classes in biotech and run DNA samples, do nanodrop work etc.) and at my local collage while waiting for my nursing program to start up, I know that we could get enough together to start figuring things out.


Originally Posted By: Dancing
Ok, providing I could find a lab/vet willing to check the dna on a glider to tell if it carries the leu gene, how many are willing to PAY the cost for that testing in addition to the cost of the glider? I'm betting not many. Most would rather have the percents and make their decisions based on chance.

I know that before, a low percent leu het was only margianally more than a grey.

I remember...
Leus were $2000-2200
100% hets were $1500
66% hets were $1000
50% hets were about $500-700
25% hets were about $300
and lower than that were MAYBE $50 more than the cost of a grey IF charged any extra at all.

And out of those, MANY of the "12% hets" proved out.

(Oh and about this time, the first Creamino was put up for sale at the grand cost of $10,000!)



Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849625
10/08/09 09:58 AM
10/08/09 09:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
SugaWhit Offline
Glider Guardian
SugaWhit  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 734
Jupiter, Florida
Whoops was posting from the phone, sorry for the off topic. And I had to giggle that the word that means to quickly pierce the skin was [censored].

I'll start a new thread and stop preaching in here. I may be pulling quotes from here though, as there is much to be talked about!


Mom to (heaven help me!) Three pairs of wonderful Glider kids-
Nero :rtmo:
Cupid a :cream: & Ceres :rtmo: +1 boy oop
Warbuck :plat: & Lysia :rtmo: & Clarissa with Twins oop each!
http://palmbeachgliders.webs.com/
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: SugaWhit] #849648
10/08/09 11:46 AM
10/08/09 11:46 AM

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eden
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I am absolutely disgusted at this thread as I am sure many others are as well. I wanted to bring up a few points that obviously have not been given enough thought.

Where are you getting the idea that most other species have been line bred to make them healthy? Some of the unhealthiest dog and cat breeds are from "pure" lines with inbreeding and line breeding and you cannot say that the breeders just did it wrong because there are MANY amazing dog breeders that really know their stuff who were key parts in creating those messed up "pure" lines. When you line breed or inbreed you are making the gene pool so shallow that you will change the genetic makeup PERMANENTLY. What you are proposing to do would alter the physical attributes of Gliders such as size as well as the health and genetic wellbeing and you would NEVER be able to bring them back to where they should be after that. I have noticed that the size of Sugar Gliders seems to be getting smaller in captivity which I am sure has a lot to do with poor breeding, especially in the early years, and unless we introduce completely new genes straight from the wild, we will never be able to fix that because the genetics has been eliminated from the captive population. By trying to weed out the bad genes you will have to weed out the good ones FIRST and you will not be able to breed back the healthy genes because they will have been eliminated or changed permanently. As has already been stated, if this was to go horribly wrong we cannot go get fresh blood from Australia because we can't import wild caught animals.

Also, are you going to police the breeders responsible for this little science experiment? There is NO way to monitor and police the people doing this. It could so easily end up in the wrong hands or a situation could arise where some of these gliders are "lost in the system" and we end up with extremely unhealthy animals in the general population.

There are very VERY few people in this community that have the knowledge of genetics to be able to do something like this correctly and I don't think any of us feel comfortable with somebody trying something like this who doesn't have a profound knowledge and training in genetics.

Also, you want to inbreed Gliders until you have all the unhealthy genes come to the surface, which is pointless because mutations are random and will occur even after the lines are clean and also because you would have to do genetic testing and blood testing etc in order to figure out what those genes were and who had them in the first place which is impossible. Then what are you going to do with the Gliders that you feel have gotten to the point of bringing all the bad DNA to the surface? If you breed them with an unrelated line to start your outcrossing then you will be infecting a line that previously did not contain all those problems and you will be right back where you started.

Also, you will never be able to get every single Glider breeder in the world to only breed clean lines and follow this "plan" so it would never be possible to completely purify the lines because some idiot somewhere is going to breed two Gliders that shouldn't be together and ruin all the work that has been done.

I think the moral of the story is be very careful what you wish for and be grateful for the positive steps that have started to be taken in the last few years because you cannot take it back once you mess it up.

You had an idea and that is wonderful, now continue learning and growing.
It takes more than a few web pages and a few dozen hours to understand genetics but it would take one catastrophic and irreversible mistake made over the course of many years to understand the consequences of medaling in genetics.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849659
10/08/09 12:25 PM
10/08/09 12:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: eden
I am absolutely disgusted at this thread as I am sure many others are as well.


Could I please just restate that the genetics garbage is NOT part of the original topic?

The direction the thread has taken ... genetics, inbreeding, a glider genome project, etc ... can all be discussed on some other thread. (for the record, I don't know why someone thinks identifying specific genes is even possible!)

THIS thread is about breeding Leu to Leu. I believe Beth's original question was something along the lines of... have the LEU lines been bred out far enough so that we can now begin breeding leu to leu safely?

Anyone care to comment on that?


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ValkyrieMome] #849665
10/08/09 12:47 PM
10/08/09 12:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
have the LEU lines been bred out far enough so that we can now begin breeding leu to leu safely?


Probably not. Although, to be honest, I'll bet if someone looked hard enough they could find 2 leus that, once paired together, would have better lineage then over half the leu het pairings out there. shakehead

However, I don't think that pairing leus is really about the lineage as much as it is about the possible repercussions of breeding 2 white gliders because then the genetics of their babies would be very limited. There'd only be the leu gene and no gray gene. I think that some breeders think that might be a possible invitation for health issues.

Pairing 2 66% leu hets it EXACTLY the same as pairing 2 leus, which is why I don't think it has much to do with lineage.

Glider genetics is still very new and until we're able to find out a bit more about the possible health risks of breeding to leus, then it might be best to hold off.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: GliderFun] #849701
10/08/09 02:46 PM
10/08/09 02:46 PM

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Fizzgig
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Fizzgig
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OK.....I am new to this site but after reading this whole thread and wondering if I would start bleeding from my eyes from plowing through all this. I HAVE to say that the AIDS, mice, people genetics info sounds like it all came from the personal diary of Josef Mengele!! Is this a joke?????

In my opinion no one has the right or brains to mess with mother nature.

I love Standard poodles but the genetic foolery that has been done to this once highly intellegent dog so that it can fit in your purse makes me sick! Now there are lots of small geneticially ruined, unhealthy, neurotic poodles. Animals that are so different from where they came from that merely looking at them wrong has them peeing on the floor. Are there some healthy smart small ones...yes, but at what price?

Last edited by Fizzgig; 10/08/09 02:49 PM.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849704
10/08/09 02:53 PM
10/08/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
This thread is taking it's course totally off the initial topic. Please, let's get this back to it's original discussion, as per Rule#3.

Originally Posted By: Rule#3
Please keep the posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum, please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of “housekeeping” is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.


Thank you

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849714
10/08/09 03:07 PM
10/08/09 03:07 PM

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Fizzgig
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Fizzgig
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There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german shepherds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white shepherd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????

(Sorry I hope this is more on topic).

Last edited by Fizzgig; 10/08/09 03:13 PM.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849720
10/08/09 03:14 PM
10/08/09 03:14 PM

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Gucciburger
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Gucciburger
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Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849722
10/08/09 03:15 PM
10/08/09 03:15 PM

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Fizzgig
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Fizzgig
Unregistered
F



Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?


I believe so..yes.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849740
10/08/09 03:49 PM
10/08/09 03:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
THANK YOU, LINDA!!

I am about at my wit's end just trying to get this thread back on topic...I believe this is an important discussion and it has been thrown out the window in favor of a more controversial topic, which I am worried will put off the people whose opinions I want to hear about leu to leu breeding.

I believe Nicole said it the very best:

Quote:
Pairing 2 66% leu hets it EXACTLY the same as pairing 2 leus, which is why I don't think it has much to do with lineage.


As you all can see from my previous posts, I am not in favor of inbreeding or linebreeding unless a select few people are working carefully to help a new recessive color line to emerge its infancy without being ruined by ignorant people. What I AM for is talking about a WHITE ELEPHANT that has been in all of our rhetorical living rooms for quite some time. Everyone knows that breeding a leu to a leu is the same as breeding two 66% hets in some cases. To encourage people to breed their pairings out at least one generation so that a leu is only paired with a het or lesser het is WISE, I agree with this. BUT, there are pairings out there that were made purely out of a desire to produce leus for their monetary value.

Look at this pedigree.

This glider's lineage is considered acceptable? It was bred by a very popular breeder--the same one that bred my little boy, and the joey with the respiratory and heart problems...somehow this person seems to think that breeding a glider with an 11.7% COI is a better idea than pairing two (now easily locatable) unrelated leus. I've also noticed "holes" popping up in lineage lately, and it seems that when many of these "holes" are traced, it's found that bad patches in lineage were removed on purpose, rather than there being no lineage at all. The hard fact is that somehow, it's been beaten into everyone that breeding leu to leu is dangerous and taboo, with NO EVIDENCE yet provided of unhealthy joeys, but inbreeding to this degree is not. The only goal I had in starting this topic was to find solid proof that leu to leu causes defects--there is no proof. All of us can argue until we're blue in the face--but until there is some proof one way or the other it is all moot. It is a theory people have been threatened not to test. Threatened, did I say? Why yes, I did. When someone breeds leu to leu they are shamed and no one will do business with them anymore.

Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here--just because my thread went wildly off topic (and I'm sure you didn't mind at all) is not reason to move it to Breeding and Babies where it will eventually be forgotten and buried with other threads...this is a FACT or FICTION topic. It was approved for posting in the correct section and was hijacked, which was not my fault. Just because someone is uncomfortable with the topic doesn't provide a significant reason to "dispose" of it...if the Fact or Fiction forum is only for threads that don't involve breeding, I would like to suggest that be added to the stated rules. This thread is about health, and is trying to clarify whether a rumor is true or not. In my opinion it fits perfectly in Fact or Fiction.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849748
10/08/09 04:01 PM
10/08/09 04:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
Glider Slave
kitsune  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?


I believe so..yes.


Again, we are comparing sugar gliders to other animals--animals that are not even marsupials. Is it a blanket rule that white to white in other animals produces bad traits? No. It's something that may be a problem in some animals, but not others, and I doubt there are any examples of species of marsupials that have the same issues. It was always based on pure speculation, and now this speculation has turned into an "old wives tale" that everyone believes but doesn't know why. We have proof, 10 joeys born to a pair of leus, and there weren't any deformities, illnesses, behavioral problems, or problems with their offspring. I believe this is enough proof that it's not an issue to breed white to white in sugar gliders on a basic level. There could be problems that pop up in the future, but no more problems than breeding leu hets that carry the same genetic spread. If you all honestly believe that breeding leu to leu will cause defects, WHY ARE YOU BREEDING THEM AT ALL?? If you are producing faulty gliders, the production should be stopped. A glider that causes genetic defects to pass when paired with another of the same color is, in my opinion, a completely irresponsible animal to breed. The defects should be weeded out, not bred further in! But wait, there's been no evidence of these defects, so it must be ok to keep breeding for leu...we just won't breed that way *in case* it happens to bring out defects...at least then we can claim partial ignorance.

A side of the fence needs to be picked...either leus should not be bred at all, because they carry genetic defects, or they are safe to breed with one another, when the lineage matches, because they don't.


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849754
10/08/09 04:29 PM
10/08/09 04:29 PM

E
eden
Unregistered
eden
Unregistered
E



I completely agree that this topic and the information in it, whether it be on or off course, is very valuable and hope that it is not moved to a section where it will be forgotten.

I also agree that I do not believe that at this time there is sufficient evidence to claim that Leu to Leu is dangerous. I think as long as the animals come from healthy, unrelated lineages, that a Leu to Leu pairing is safe. HOWEVER, I would recommend that the offspring from a Leu to Leu pairing be outcrossed into another line or at least not be paired with another Leu simply because Leu is recessive and therefore it has a higher probability for random mutations of genetic flaws, especially when bred with another recessive, so I would recommend breeding the joeys of that pairing with an unrelated lineage that is not another Leu just to ensure that strong DNA is maintained and any genetic "gaps" are filled in before they present an issue.

I also don't agree that Leu x Leu is just as bad as het to het or Leu to het. Leus are recessive and this means that they likely have other recessive genes or gaps in the genetic material that are not desired. A het, simply by NOT being Leucistic, has a higher chance of having stronger DNA. Some issues will be passed on to Hets just as they can be passed on to the Leus in a lineage but in most cases, the homozygous recessive animal has a higher chance of weaker genetic material than a heterozygous animal.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849757
10/08/09 04:36 PM
10/08/09 04:36 PM

F
Fizzgig
Unregistered
Fizzgig
Unregistered
F



The animals that don't have issues with being bred white to white are mostly where white occurs in large percentages or is the "normal" color.

I'm not saying it's written in stone. I have in fact myself questioned the ethics of so called "big, long term breeders" they can do something then dump on others for doing the same thing. Or in some cases as your example...worse.

I wouldn't breed leu to leu based on what I know of this recessive gene in others animals. Is it or will it be true with gliders only time will tell. I'm not sure 10 joeys are enough to know.

I do know this...if all gliders no matter the color were priced the same, (after all it isn't any more money or work to raise a different color) then this topic would have no merit anyway. breeders will always strive for the designer colors because they can charge more. Some of them (not all) with total disregard of the animals longterm welfare.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849758
10/08/09 04:37 PM
10/08/09 04:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,311
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
Owner
KarenE  Offline
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,311
LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: kitsune

Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here--just because my thread went wildly off topic (and I'm sure you didn't mind at all) is not reason to move it to Breeding and Babies where it will eventually be forgotten and buried with other threads...this is a FACT or FICTION topic. It was approved for posting in the correct section and was hijacked, which was not my fault. Just because someone is uncomfortable with the topic doesn't provide a significant reason to "dispose" of it...if the Fact or Fiction forum is only for threads that don't involve breeding, I would like to suggest that be added to the stated rules. This thread is about health, and is trying to clarify whether a rumor is true or not. In my opinion it fits perfectly in Fact or Fiction.


Beth, I am actually glad you brought this up and will post in that forum about this later.

First, I removed Eddie's sticky earlier as posts have not needed approval since right after the forum opened as there was a bug which caused problems so the forum has been open where anyone could post a topic without approval. If we felt the topic should be moved, we simply did so as with.

The intent of the Fact or Fiction forum as explained here is to discuss those topics that may or may not be viewed as Old Wives Tales now after many years. We do not feel that leu to leu breeding falls into that category, so I moved it.

Quote:
Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here
My e-mail address is in my profile should you need to contact me privately wink

Last edited by KarenE; 10/08/09 04:43 PM.

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Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ] #849760
10/08/09 04:42 PM
10/08/09 04:42 PM

F
Fizzgig
Unregistered
Fizzgig
Unregistered
F



Originally Posted By: eden
A het, simply by NOT being Leucistic, has a higher chance of having stronger DNA. Some issues will be passed on to Hets just as they can be passed on to the Leus in a lineage but in most cases, the homozygous recessive animal has a higher chance of weaker genetic material than a heterozygous animal.


Totally agree.

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Guerita135] #849765
10/08/09 04:55 PM
10/08/09 04:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Guerita135

However, I don't think that pairing leus is really about the lineage as much as it is about the possible repercussions of breeding 2 white gliders because then the genetics of their babies would be very limited. There'd only be the leu gene and no gray gene. I think that some breeders think that might be a possible invitation for health issues.

This is the only thing AGAINST it that anyone has said that made any sense to me at all.

Are there no other colors that have a double-recessive gene? Isn't that what albinos and creminos are? Of course THOSE lines are not bred out far enough yet.

As I understand what you are saying - the individual genetics (of the SPECIFIC glider, not of the color trait) might be weak because they'd have ONLY the leu genetics, whereas others would have a gray gene, even if it isn't shown?

But- I thought to express the leu color, it had to have the double recessive gene. So - any glider which has the leu coloring at all lacks the gray? Isn't that right? So - even breeding a leu with a 12% het - if the resulting joey is a leu, it lacks the gray gene, right?

Help me out here if I'm not understanding.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: ValkyrieMome] #849771
10/08/09 05:09 PM
10/08/09 05:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,889
Springfield/Eugene, OR
kitsune Offline OP
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kitsune  Offline OP
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Springfield/Eugene, OR
That's right, Alden, but somehow when an albino and a leu are paired together, even though they are both recessive, only grey comes out. So, the grey gene still has to be in there somewhere. You would technically have a grey 100% leu het/100% albino het, which means the simple punnet square gets a lot more complicated. :/


Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: kitsune] #849933
10/08/09 10:57 PM
10/08/09 10:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
G
GliderFun Offline
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GliderFun  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 324
NY
I apologize Kitsune for taking your post off topic. It wasn't my intention!!!!

I also agree with you that it Belongs in FACT OR FICTION area!!

Hopefully through your post, no matter where it is, we will be able to determine whether breeding leu to leu IS A FACT OR FICTION since whether it's been fact or fiction has been the center of many debates.

I'll keep reading because I'm also really curious if people believe breeding leu to leu causing genetic defects is fact or fiction!

:-)

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Judie] #849943
10/08/09 11:24 PM
10/08/09 11:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Originally Posted By: Judie
Personly I think it is too soon to bred Leu to Leu.

Sammy and Ssleen bred together by ToandFro were Leus. Saleen herself a few years later became sickly and after an extended period of over a year died. Her life was short as was her breeding ability.


There is a correction here. Saleen was 2 years old when she died and she died of Gall bladder cancer. She did not have a long sickness, as a matter of fact, I did not know she was sick until the day she died. She had two five day old joeys the day she died. If she had been ill, I would have not allowed her to breed.

Judie, I think you are thinking of Jolene.

Originally Posted By: kitsune
It sounds to me like Saleen had a genetic problem that was passed down to her son, which can happen with any color variant.


Beth I guess you didn't know that she died of Cancer.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects [Re: Sheila] #849972
10/09/09 01:34 AM
10/09/09 01:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
As I have stated on several forums, no one is sure what the Leu to Leu breeding would do. Some people have suggested to keep the offspring throughout a life time and hold back several generations to find out if the gliders will be free from defects. For a midsize breeder this would be difficult because most people purchase a glider, breed it and hope that the sale of the offspring will help pay for it. I am not sure that the community would donate to such a cause of experimental breeding program. It is not like you are caring for sick gliders and are being donated funds like a rescue organization would have, but it does cost something to house and feed them over a period of years. Most of these types of breeding programs are done with donations or grants.
It would have to be a life long goal for a breeder to take this on.

I have also stated before that when moving my gliders to my glider room 6 years ago which is outside in my garage, the temps rose and created too much humidity in my glider room. Two gliders died while I was on vacation. A necropsy showed Clostridium due to the gliders being under stressed condition with the high humidity. The one female that died was a normal. She had a three day old joey that also died. Her immune system would have been compromised because of her having two newborn joeys born at this time. After returning from my vacation, the only gliders who tested positive for the Clostridium were one Albino female, one Leucistic male, one Leu het female, one mosaic female. and one Leu het male. There were 32 other normal gliders left in this room and none had the Clostridium. Only the Hets for Leus, Leus, Mosaic, and Albino had it. That is why I have never felt comfortable with the Leu to Leu breeding. The first and only time I did the Leu to Leu breeding was to prove a point to a breeder that the gene was not lethal. Once I proved that point, they were not allowed to breed together again.
There have been two more Leu lines discovered now, but I don't like the idea of purposefully experimenting on something to see if it is safe to do so.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
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